The C-Brats Forum Index
HomeForumsMy TopicsCalendarEvent SignupsMemberlistOur C-DorysThe Brat MapPhotos

Honda 90 HP Failure
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> General Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Phil Barnes



Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 99
City/Region: Colorado /San Juan Islands
State or Province: CO
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Swan-C
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Honda 90 HP Failure Reply with quote

Well shoot, there we were, approaching Dodd Narrows south of Nanaimo on the way to Desolation Sound and the Broughtons. We had left the San Juans the afternoon before, run to Montague Harbor overnight and left early that morning to catch slack tide at Dodd.

About one mile south of Dodd Narrows the 2011 injected 90 with only 480 hours on it coughed once. I went to neutral and it recovered quickly. On we went and it was running fine. I thought I may have had an air bubble in the fuel line perhaps. 15 minutes later it just quit all at once. Nothing happened when the key was turned. Trim and Tilt didn't work either. Batteries were fine based on volt meter. Fuel was new and stabilized. We had run a few hours the day before with no issues and had run over an hour that morning. Since services in the Gulf Islands are limited I decided to go on to Nanaimo. Wind was low and currents were in our favor. I really didn't expect anything major as the engine had low hours and is serviced annually.

The 9.9 HP kicker started right up and we went through Dodd Narrows at slack tide without a hitch. We got to Nanaimo the Friday before Canada Day. Bad timing on my part. I called every shop in town and they all said to call back on Tuesday and maybe....just maybe...they could squeeze us in about two weeks! I check with Comox and Cambell River....same story.

I called the shop we use on the mainland in WA and sent some photos. A friend happened to be at the dock in Nanaimo. He is a marine tech and had a quick look as I had the hood off and was sorting out what had happened. He took one look and said, "you are due a new motor!".

The upper thermostat cover (a cast part) had cracked allowing water to enter the motor housing. Since the housing is drained by two very small holes with flapper valves, it was coming in faster than it could get out so it filled most of the motor housing, about 2/3 full. You could see the debris and water mark on the inside of the hood. This flooded the electronics. Water also entered the crankcase through the dipstick apparently as the oil looked like off color mayonnaise.

I thought about buying a new engine in Canada, but nothing was going to happen fast there. The exchange rate was good but there questions on warranty in the U.S. as I learned that Hondas sold in Canada are not warranted in the U.S. and vice versa. Something to think about.

I finally decided to go back to Orcas Island on the 9.9 hp kicker. Tides and currents were studied carefully. The first leg was to Montaque Harbor. My wife ran the throttle and gear shift when needed and I steered using the bar linking the 9.9 to the 90. With good team work we managed to dock, get fuel and dock when back in the islands. My kicker is on port side which makes it hard to run from the stern due to the placement of the handle on the 9.9 hitting the side of the boat. Much easier to run from the stern if mounted on the starboard side. It would also be easier to run if I had a TrollMaster installed which gives throttle control at the helm with gear shift control at the motor. That may be on next years project list.

The second day we ran across Boundary Pass, again with careful planning of tides and currents and a very close watch for big ship traffic in the Pass. We cleared customs with a phone call (Nexus) and continued to Orcas Island. The currents picked up near Jones Island we went around the other side of the island than planned as we were going sideways about as fast as we were going forward. Once protected by the island we had an easy run to Deer Harbor.

I ordered a new Honda on the mainland. Another choice. Go to the mainland where the trailer was and bring it over on the ferry (about $300) or run across Rosario Strait and through Deception Pass to where we normally launch in Coronet Bay. I chose that route. Tides and current planning again. Weather was great for all of this which made it doable. Low wind and no fog. I went through Deception Pass at slack on the 9.9 with very low traffic so no issues.

We use Ports and Passes for tides and currents plus the Canadian Hydrographic Service Current Atlas, which really helps with the bigger picture of what is happening with currents.

After the new engine was installed, we drove around the San Juans for a couple days getting break in hours so we could do the first service. A tough job but it had to be done! Then we loaded up again and headed north. We had a wonderful trip and spent 29 days on the boat exploring Desolation Sound and the Broughtons.

Will my boats have two engines...either twins or main and a kicker? Yes. The kicker was very valuable to us and we traveled for about 15 hours with it. It gave us safety and options. The 9.9 hp burned less than 1 gallon per hour by my estimates at 3/4 throttle. We ran about 5.5 knots without any current against us. I would wind it up to full throttle and then slow it down to where it sounded "right" for sustained running and fuel economy.

Major mechanical issues with modern engines, especially when well maintained and used lightly, are rare. But they do happen as we came to find out first hand.

Our new engine is a Honda 100 HP. It works well and seems like more than "just 10 hp more than the 90 HP". A Yamaha 115 would have also been a good choice or two 50 HP units.

I went with the single Honda as it was suggested to me that I submit a claim to insurance. Sticking with the same or similar engine seemed like a good idea so as to not complicate the insurance process.

The insurance did pay for a new motor. I will write a second post about that shortly. I was pleasantly shocked as I really did not think there would be any consideration.

In the meantime, you might check those thermostats and thermostat housings to assure no salt build up and no cracks. When disassembled ours did not have any significant salt build up as the engine is flushed thoroughly and often. It appears to have been a bad casting.

That said, the new Hondas are redesigned. The thermostat housing is in a different location and they are using a plastic thermostat cover. Why? I have no idea but something triggered a design change.

Quite a process but all is well that ends well. We had a great trip on a new motor that came at essentially no cost to us.

That is our story from "Life on the Water" for the summer of 2018.

Can't wait to get back north again next summer!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
MikeR



Joined: 21 Apr 2013
Posts: 379
City/Region: Mill Creek
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2016
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big-C
Photos: MikeR
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Phil, sorry to hear that! But really happy to see that it just ended up being a delay in your plans, and an experience you'll remember forever, with no major expense since your insurance is covering it. That's outstanding!

I'm curious, since you were parked in Cornet Bay, did you end up getting the new one from EQ Marine? I've had the same experience with the ol' "at least 2 weeks before we can even think about looking at it" from virtually every outboard dealer anywhere, regardless circumstances. But never the case with EQ, so just curious if that's who helped you get back on the water with the new Honda.

Totally agree with your comments about still being a good idea to have a kicker or twins even with modern and perfectly maintained engines. I wouldn't leave the dock without. Was out on a friend's boat this weekend and we used his 8 hp Yamaha to get back to the dock after his low-hours modern EFI engine died suddenly in the marina. Back at the dock we found a blown fuse, but the kicker saved us from drifting into other boats, or worse, the shore.

Also great to hear your first-hand feedback on the new 100 hp. My understanding was that you need to run premium to get that extra 10 hp, but that does not sound to be the case with your motor. Good to know!

-Mike

_________________
22' C-Dory Cruiser "Big C"
16' C-Dory Angler "Lil'C" (Sold May 2017)
10' C-Dory Row Boat "Baby C"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PaulNBriannaLynn



Joined: 26 Oct 2012
Posts: 567
City/Region: Savannah
State or Province: GA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: TBD
Photos: Lorelei
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What an adventure. Thank you for sharing. It must have felt like quite the accomplishment to get back into Cornet Bay. That's quite a run on kicker motor.
_________________
2007 22 cruiser 10/2017
2009 Parker 23SE sold 10/2017
2003 22 cruiser sold 3/2016
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Phil Barnes



Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 99
City/Region: Colorado /San Juan Islands
State or Province: CO
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Swan-C
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we use the services of EQ Marine. They arranged schedules and worked hard to get us back on the water as quickly as possible. They have a shop trailer and truck and pulled us out for the installation of the new motor and also for the 20 hour service. Our trailer was about 10 miles away and use of their trailer was helpful since we were going to be out of the water for only a short time.

The literature on the 100 HP advises that premium is needed to get the full HP out of the engine and that the extra 10 HP only is available at high rpm. 5800 rpm or so if I recall, but I would have to look it up to be sure. The engine is designed to run on regular otherwise. That said, the engine just feels stronger all around than the 90 it replaced. Particularly when coming up on plane with a load. That is where I feel the difference the most. It is the same block as the 90 but with changes in electronics/valve timing. I have talked to one other individual that had the same impression. I can't back that up with anything technical but after running it about 150 hours this summer that is how it feels. The 90 HP did fine for us for a number of years though and many people run them with carbs or injected with great success for many hours. I know one individual who ran twin 90s on an early Glacier Cat for 4000 hours with only oil changes and they were still on the boat and running well when he sold it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Peter & Judy



Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 137
City/Region: Olds
State or Province: AB
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Mistaya
Photos: Mistaya
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the excellent report on your adventures with your Honda 90 and 9.9. I have the same engine setup on my 2005 22' Cruiser as it was repowered about 2011 and the 90 has about the same number of hours. I makes me feel good that it is possible to go a long way on the kicker if you have to get home after the main engine fails. My boat was originally bought from EQ Marine and also repowered there before coming north of the border. The 90 runs perfectly, but the 9.9 (Gretzky Jr.) is a bit temperamental, even though it has less than 50 hours on it. That is part of the problem, in that it doesn't get used enough. I am going to try and run it for a part of most days on my up coming Lake Powell Adventure. Next summer Mistaya will spent the entire summer on and around Vancouver island. I will ensure that both engines run perfectly before that. I have printed your report and will keep it on the boat in my reference library, just in case.
_________________
Peter & Judy Haase
Buffalo Horn Ranch

"Mistaya"
(Grizzly Bear in Cree)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dgeorges



Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 75
City/Region: Springfield
State or Province: IL
C-Dory Year: 1985
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: OPA!
Photos: OPA!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U DA MAN
_________________
Always do well. It will honor your friends and confound your enemies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chucko



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 128
City/Region: Davidson
State or Province: NC
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Angel
Photos: Sea Angel
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good info ! I have the same exact year Honda and at 600 hrs now with routine maintenance only, and very happy with motor.
I am curious to know how insurance paid for it and looking forward to more info on that process. Thanks

_________________
What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
I say that every time I wax the boat.

1997 22 cruiser
1998 17 Aquasport Osprey cc sold sold 2012
1977 16 Mako cc sold 1999
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DavidM



Joined: 24 Dec 2017
Posts: 83
City/Region: Punta Gorda
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hull insurance (not liability insurance) will generally pay for a sudden and unexpected mechanical failure and the resulting damage. It is worded to exclude wear and tear, corrosion or lack of maintenance.

I think the key to successfully making a claim is to couch the loss in those terms. A friendly broker or agent can help you word it properly and include the proper documentation.

It seems that the OP did that and as a result got paid. There was nothing nefarious about it. The insurance paid what insurance is for.

David
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Phil Barnes



Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 99
City/Region: Colorado /San Juan Islands
State or Province: CO
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Swan-C
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have more detail on the insurance process in a separate post titled: U.S. Boat/Geico Marine Insurance Claim Paid. The mechanical problem (cracked thermostat casting was not covered but the consequential damage to the engine resulting from that event was covered. This type of coverage is available from Boat U.S. under their Yacht policies but not under their Boat policies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JimTid



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 12
City/Region: Jacksonville
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2003
Vessel Name: Lucy
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Boat Insurance Reply with quote

The State Farm boat policy will also cover such loss and the motor is not depreciated. The policy cost more but you pay for what you get in this case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JimTid



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 12
City/Region: Jacksonville
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2003
Vessel Name: Lucy
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Boat Insurance Reply with quote

The State Farm boat policy will also cover such loss and the motor is not depreciated. The policy cost more but you pay for what you get in this case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gary f



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 76
City/Region: Monmouth, Or.
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: DayBreak
Photos: DayBreak
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boat insurance can really pay off because nobody plans to have an insurance claim but it can and does happen all too often.

It seems to me from reading so many posts here that boat insurance companies are pretty much equal in what they cover. When calling an agent for insurance coverage, you may want to consider asking all the "What if" questions to make sure you are covered for everything that can possibly go wrong with the boat, trailer, electronics and motor etc.

Spending a little extra money annually for extra coverage can make a big difference on keeping your investment together and where you are continuing to have fun on the water.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 9362
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW, I just came back through Dodd and the Gulf Islands and across Juan de Fuca. Sure glad it was not on a kicker. Phil, pat your self and your wife on the back for being good mariners for making that trip. Sorry you had the engine failure, and glad the insurance stepped up.

I am curious IF it had not been Canada Day, would anyone up there have been willing to work with you on a repair, service or repower even if you had been willing to hang out on the docks at our northern neighbours? I have not heard any recent stories, but have long been aware of the difference in USA and Canada Honda companies. They don't service one another, work, parts or warranties. Any thoughts on contingency plans for you next summer trip.

Did your kicker fuel from the main OB tanks or did you have a separate tank for it? You had a single so you also had a tank selector switch. Is that correct?

Much of my trip I did at my slow cruising speed, (hull just below bow wave speed) at about 4.7 knots. That combined with the tide ride of 1.5 to 2.5 knots makes over the ground a respectable 6+ knot speed. AND you get to see more scenery that way.

FYI, here is the link to the Insurance part of the the story:
http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t=26801&highlight=

Harvey
SleepyCMoon


_________________
Though in our sleep we are not conscious of our activity or surroundings, we should not, in our wakefulness, be unconscious of our sleep.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phil Barnes



Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 99
City/Region: Colorado /San Juan Islands
State or Province: CO
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Swan-C
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Honda 90 Failure Reply with quote

Good advice to talk with the insurance agent on what ifs and get the best determination of what the coverage is. I talked to the surveyor that did the evaluation for the insurance company and he said that it is a competitive market and that an agent for the company, or an independent agent, should be able to advise in writing of coverage and coverage for the what ifs.

Canadian shops will work on U.S. Hondas, but Canada and the U.S. do not honor each other's warranties. So cash is king. Most shops have a waiting period for a new customer during peak season...if you are a repeat customer. Seems ridiculous but they are two different companies apparently. That said, Yamaha dealers are most places in Canada as they have a large network of dealers. You see Yamahas everywhere up north but not near as many Hondas except in the smaller sizes.

A good question for the insurance company is about coverage areas as some only cover in the U.S. or for a distance of 50 miles into Canada. One has to be sure, particularly if headed for Alaska.

The kicker is plumbed into the main fuel line but has its own line and primer bulb. It runs from either of the two tanks, whichever one is selected with the manual selection valve.

I will still rely on the Honda main and the kicker. If I wanted redundancy with more power I could power with twin 50s. If I wanted to avoid the Honda warranty situation I could power with single or twin Yamahas. One has to chose a level of risk and expense and carry on! Many nautical miles have been covered with all of those options I bet! One of those personal choices. But I do like having some kind of backup power and the kicker did the job this time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
gary f



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 76
City/Region: Monmouth, Or.
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: DayBreak
Photos: DayBreak
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your knowledge on this insurance matter Phil. We have a Suzuki main and kicker on our boat. One day we would like to travel much further up into Canada waters. Any idea of how Suzuki's are handled north of the border?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> General Chat All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
     Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Page generation time: 0.0908s (PHP: 70% - SQL: 30%) - SQL queries: 32 - GZIP disabled - Debug on