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JMacLeod



Joined: 26 Jun 2018
Posts: 173
City/Region: Stuart
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: C-Shalom
Photos: JMacLeod
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Outfitting with new Garmin suggestions Reply with quote

We're considering both new and used Tomcat options.
If we decide on the new boat I'll have to pick everything from scratch starting with electronics.
Sticking with the Garmin family for ease of learning, what kind of shopping list am I looking at for an all-around cruising/fishing/diving set-up for FL-Bahama waters?

So far from my research, it looks like I'm going to want a couple of 10" displays and a Fantom 24 radome.
Still fuzzy on the difference between transducers and what other expensive gadgets may be required to get the most use out of the gear.
I'm OK with not having the bleeding edge tech so long as the last gen stuff isn't missing a major improvement worth the cost.

Any suggestions so I don't overlook something important when I sit down with the dealer is appreciated.
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gulfcoast john



Joined: 14 Dec 2012
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City/Region: PENSACOLA
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2010
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Cat O' Mine
Photos: CAT O' MINE
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject: garmin suite Reply with quote

Hi again John!
Your willingness to research will help a lot through this journey. Bottom line, stay with the Garmin GPS-series (their top/most capable line) and the 76 series (82 and higher supports multiple helms and 24 inch screens and things that are extremely cool but not needed on a TC255 initial outfitting).
Consider a single 7612 12 inch screen rather than 2 10 inches for the cost delta. Add another after a year if wanted.
The South Florida Ranger Tugs meet had the Garmin Southeast rep give a talk where he admitted that the 76 series is getting long in the tooth at the 3 year mark but wouldn’t divulge much else. He also admitted that the forward-looking Panto ducer only worked in water over 15 feet deep, which excludes all of Florida.
Hold off on radar and autopilot until you have a season of cruising time. With 2 pilots and a 40+MPH cruise you may not need autopilot.
Add a Garmin AIS 300 (rec only) or AIS 600 (tx and rec with ‘pirate mode’ ability to turn off tx). MUST HAVE ITEM! Garmin AIS600 includes a non-shared GPS antenna as required by FCC which will use your Garmin N2K backbone network.
Add Garmin VHF 200…includes hailer, deck listen, auto foghorn, direct dialing to the bridge of all AIS targets with 1 touch ,on the display. Add hailer speaker later. VHF 100 cheaper but won’t do any of that.
Panto ducer, no black box needed. .
VHF antenna, I like Digital, but West Marine will have Shakespeare at 40-50% off regularly. The Garmin AIS 300/600 have a share feature included, most don’t.
Garmin N2K backbone and Marine Network cables included with 7612 box..
Grand total about $4400 w/o ducer. I have GT31 with side scan and CHIRP but not panto about $150.

Lots of room here for different opinions, but you must beat $4550. I think that's a lot of capability for a $4550 all Garmin suite on a $150,000 Tom Cat with max upgrade capability. I avoid collisions with eyeballs and AIS gives me the target's projected path and, most important, NAME for VHF comm...radar does not.

PS we are exploring Ontario’s waterways by car for 3-4 weeks, and Linsey might not appreciate my favorite Canada T-Shirt to date:
“There is plenty of space here for all of God’s creatures…
Right next to the mashed potatoes.”
Cheers!
John

_________________
John and Eileen Highsmith
2010 Tom Cat 255, Cat O' Mine
Yamaha F150, LXF150
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JMacLeod



Joined: 26 Jun 2018
Posts: 173
City/Region: Stuart
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: C-Shalom
Photos: JMacLeod
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again, John.
We're sea trialing the 2018 TC tomorrow.

Disappointed to hear about the panoptix.
It sounded like essential gear for the shallows:
Garmin wrote:
See the bottom ahead of your boat in real time on your chartplotter.

Avoid running aground: The Panoptix PS51-TH multibeam thru-hull transducer with premium FrontVü forward-looking sonar helps you avoid running aground by displaying the bottom ahead of your boat in real time on your chartplotter. It also includes LiveVü Forward sonar to give you the unique ability to see fish — even divers — swimming in real time under and ahead of your boat with a 100' forward range.


Appreciate the list of must haves and what's not necessary to aid sorting the wheat from the chaff.
I'm a fan of redundancy, but open to adding a second MFD later.

I'm currently 37 windows deep in boat forum electronics threads, but most are fishing-centric in nature.
What's the best type/position transducer mounting for a Tomcat hull?
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gulfcoast john



Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 989
City/Region: PENSACOLA
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C-Dory Year: 2010
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Cat O' Mine
Photos: CAT O' MINE
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: garmin suite Reply with quote

I'll defer to Bob as I think he has the best system, which as I recall is basically a Starboard plank that is mounted to the boat with transom thru-bolts ABOVE the waterline so there are no holes through the boat below the waterline. Then mount ducers (and many fail shortly after the 1 yr warranty) without drilling different holes in the boat for the many ducers you may go through.

My original transom mount ducer (now on the 4th) was just screwed in through the core without epoxy plug and just some sealant. The cable goes thru a hole in the transom above the waterline. An area of undisturbed water is best ie a flat area between chines.

Other 255 owners, what do you have?
John
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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City/Region: Pensacola
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C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The transducer location is best outside of the prop which rotates away from the transducer--to give undisturbed water.

There should be a piece of Starboard mounted to the transom. That way if you need to do fine tuning adjustments to the transducer to get the best images you can move it up and down without breaking seals or water intrusion into the transom.

I make inverted "Y" cuts in the block of Starboard with a Fein type of saw--Dremel tool or Dremel saw will do this as well. Then "G Flex epoxy" after flame hardening the surface of the Starboard. I also put in tow screws, pot them in epoxy to avoid any water intrusion into the core.

Get the single transducer which will do CHIRP, DownScan and Side Scan--it will be large. I have run two transducers on a number of boats with no problems--just use different frequencies.

9 to 10" or even smaller MFD have worked for me. I have not used the Fantom Radar, but there are some interesting reviews. Be sure and review all material on "Panbo" (Ben Ellison and Ben Stein). Also the threads by "Bill Bishop". I would also research the unit on "The Hull Truth" electronics forum.

I personally have gone with Standard Horizon or I com radios. There are multiple AIS receivers. Hook up is usually very easy. I don't see a Transceiver as essential, unless you are going to be in crowded harbors with low visibility.

Be sure and get the MMSI number and put in in your radios. (Pleural).

Auto pilot--many choices. Do the research.

The forward looking sonars at recreational vessel vessel prices are not prime time yet. If you are in the Gulf, and ICW--it is mostly visual--follow the channels, and watch the depth sounder. Even if forward scan worked---it is only useful short ranges and low speeds. (Ask the US Navy--which had millions to spend.)

_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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JMacLeod



Joined: 26 Jun 2018
Posts: 173
City/Region: Stuart
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: C-Shalom
Photos: JMacLeod
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are one step closer to joining the c-brat family.
The sea-trial of the Three Rivers 2018 Tomcat was a hit with the wife.

We walked out of the dealers with a tentative agreement for the following:

Base Tomcat with 150hp Suzuki OBs and Float-on trailer: $157,300
(Website stated $154,900 so I'll have to ask about the discrepancy later)

Electronics and canvas:
Garmin 7612xvs (x2) - $7400
GT51M-TM transducer - $600
GT8 transducer - $300
Fantom 24 radome - $2800
Ghp Reactor Auto Pilot - $4100
Network cable - $30
GXM 53 weather antenna - $800
VHF 210 w/ AIS - $600
VHF mount - $70
VHF antenna - $170
Coleman Marine Mach roof A/C - $2400
Full canvas camper back with screens - $3720
Screen for center opening window - $280

Dealer will include all labor charges for installing electronics plus dacron snap-in curtains for all windows (already installed), all basic safety gear, and a second anchor and rode.
So right now we're at $180-181k before tax, tag, title and dealer fees.

What else am I missing gear-wise for a new boat, and is this a deal I should be happy with?
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lengthy PM sent. I would check prices vs what is available. Do you really need 2 x 12" MFD? If using the 13,500 "marine" AC (the Army corp of engineers uses the off the shelf RV units, what generator is necessary to run it at anchor (It may run with a Smart or EZ start off the Honda EU2200i ) I found that the 9200 BTU AC was fine for us on the Tom Cat. (also ran nicely off the EU 2000i) But the 13,500 will really cool the boat. Using Reflextic in the windows, is probably worth 4,000 BTU!! Look at my install in the album.--I was concerned with that size and weight of an air conditioner on the cabin top. We contoured the top of the cabin flat, as well as the inside--the "gasket" of the air conditioners is made to seal with minimum pressure on flat or very slightly crowned surfaces.


Be sure and plan everything out ahead of time. How is the dinghy, kayak, air conditioner, and radar all going to work on the top?

What about proper epoxy potting and sealing of all thru cored structure holes? Will the dealer do this?
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JMacLeod



Joined: 26 Jun 2018
Posts: 173
City/Region: Stuart
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: C-Shalom
Photos: JMacLeod
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Lengthy PM sent. I would check prices vs what is available. Do you really need 2 x 12" MFD?

No sir, but if I'm going to add an extra $80k to the budget for a "clean & pretty" boat to satisfy the admiral, then you can bet I'm not going to skimp a couple grand on the high-techy shiny bits I'm going to actually play with on a daily basis.
In for a penny, in for a pound.

thataway wrote:
If using the 13,500 "marine" AC (the Army corp of engineers uses the off the shelf RV units, what generator is necessary to run it at anchor (It may run with a Smart or EZ start off the Honda EU2200i ) I found that the 9200 BTU AC was fine for us on the Tom Cat. (also ran nicely off the EU 2000i) But the 13,500 will really cool the boat. Using Reflextic in the windows, is probably worth 4,000 BTU!! Look at my install in the album.--I was concerned with that size and weight of an air conditioner on the cabin top. We contoured the top of the cabin flat, as well as the inside--the "gasket" of the air conditioners is made to seal with minimum pressure on flat or very slightly crowned surfaces.


I was planning on the same 13.5kw 14x14 roofmount Coleman with the EU2200i.

The place I'm going to most want to pick your brain is exactly where it wandered to at the end. Right toward designing a roof rack that takes into account all your prior engineering with "old man aids", davits and such, for storing our kayaks and a dink w/ motor on top while keeping an optimum height (hinged?) radar mast.

I'll need to find a SS or aluminum fabricator near me once I have an idea of what I need.
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gulfcoast john



Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 989
City/Region: PENSACOLA
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2010
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Cat O' Mine
Photos: CAT O' MINE
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: tc255 Reply with quote

Congrads, it's a great boat, you're going to love it!

Consider the 13.k Coleman-Mach Powersaver 3 over the reg Mach 3, as it meets the Honda 2000 specs (just barely). We find we'd rather cool the boat off in a hurry on shorepower after a day on the water much more often than we'd anchor out with a generator running all night on the boat. I'd say the price difference is well worth it. It's more pleasant to anchor out in the shoulder seasons with no need for AC. (Here on the Trent-Severn, mostly 70's with low humidity in July and Aug, a good time to escape Florida). I very seriously doubt that our prior owner's dealer, Mobile East Marine, was as careful with the AC install as Bob was with his. We've not had any issues, leaks or stress lines at 8 years so far.

http://www.airxcel.com/coleman-mach/products/air-conditioners/medium-profile/mach-3-p-s

Consider a high grade 3M window treatment for Florida. Pristige line does not block handheld VHF or AM/FM radio, is not so dark that it inhibits nightime navigation, and makes a tremendous difference in the interior heat load esp with interior Rhino window coverings. We don't navigate at night if we can help it and you likely won't either. Was $900 cash installed on all windows.

We're considering the Sea-Eagle 2 person $1200 inflatable kayak with trolling motor as the radar could shoot right through it, however it won't plane and is not a conventional cruiser's dink.

Keep it under 13 ft 6 inches. Many bridges on the Trans Canada highway are marked as "4.2m" clearance, which would scrape off my radar if my math is correct. The Ranger Tug/Cutwater Gathering starts today here in Orillia, Ontario on the T-W and most attendees are local, I'll be asking them about this and other issues.

Get that boat ready for cruising! A good used 2500HD diesel truck or equiv will be a heck of lot easier to find than a good used TC255!

Congrads!
John
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JMacLeod



Joined: 26 Jun 2018
Posts: 173
City/Region: Stuart
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2018
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: C-Shalom
Photos: JMacLeod
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Deals" thread had a Costco Yamaha 2000 for $499.
There's an additional $50 rebate for the next 4 days, which brings the price down to $450 for one, or $900 for two to run in parallel.
https://www.costco.com/A-IPower-1600W-Running--2000W-Peak-Yamaha-Powered-Gas-Inverter-Generator.product.100343958.html

Has anyone run a parallel set-up on the stern of a TC or 25?
Is there even room?

I love a good deal and redundancy, but I'm not sure how well this will work compared to the Honda 2200/Coleman combo.

Generators
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Honda EU2200i - $999
1800w/2200w

Costco Yamaha 2000 - $450
1600w/2000w
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Coleman rooftop A/Cs:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Marine Mach - 13.5k - $1372
1590w to 1940w cooling load
1800w heat load

Mach 10 Low Profile - 13.5k - $1067
1350w to 1625w cooling load
1800w heat load

Mach 8 Ultra-Low Profile Plus Cub - 9.2k - $918
1270w to 1550w cooling load
1748w heat load

Mach 3 Power Saver - 13.5k - $787
1075w to 1320w cooling load
1750w heat load
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now, I was originally planning on a Honda 2200, Marine Mach 13.5k, and an Easy Start kit to reduce starting amps by 50%.
Total - $2670

The most bang for the buck financially would be a Mach 3 PS and a Costco Yamaha 2000.
Total - $1237
With Easy Start kit - $1536

A more versatile midway set-up would be to add a parallel Yamaha (especially while they're on sale) as a spare back-up and for an extra boost when needed.
Total - $1687
With Easy Start kit - $1986

Thoughts?
Is the reputation of the Honda and the build quality/materials of the Marine Mach worth the $1000 premium difference?
For comparison, that equals two more replacement/parallel Yama gennies or more than a replacement 13.5k PS A/C unit.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience is with the Honda EU 2000i, and the 9,200 BTU AC. It worked on full throttle. With the ezy start it should be fine on echo throttle, but I have not tried it.

I have not used the Yamaha, some tests show it is slightly louder than the Honda.
There is also the place to run, store and the fuel use with two parallel generators. But the price is compelling.

You may be able to run the two paralleled Yamaha on "eco throttle" I am not sure how well that works on the Yamaha.

I have a new Honda EU 2200i and it runs 1500 watts (resistive load) very easily on EcoThrottle. and not a full throttle. I don't know the track record of the Yamaha--Yamaha has a great reputation--there is a lot more experience with the Honda.
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ssobol



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only find "easy start" units for larger AC units. They usually cost in the neighborhood of $400-500. Are these the units people are talking about? Seems like a lot of money for starting a $100 air conditioner (at least in my case).
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starcrafttom



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just two quick things. Get radar and auto pilot right off. Why you would wait to see if you need it or what your top speed has to do with it is beyond me. Less time steering is more time looking where you are going. Its also easier on the body and mind. I miss my auto pilot and so does the wife. Auto pilots are great tools to manage your travels at all speeds.

Second. With all the chart plotters having wifi and supporting a second station on a Pad , including full control of your system, do you really need a second MFD?

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http://tomsfishinggear.blogspot.com/
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gulfcoast john



Joined: 14 Dec 2012
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Photos: CAT O' MINE
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: TC255 Reply with quote

After reading more on the Costco Yamaha generator, I realized that it was not a real Yamaha generator, but a knockoff using only a Yamaha engine. A real Yamaha generator with Yamaha electrical guts would be a steal at that price. It does include a paralell cord, though.
We've had two Honda 2000's for many years and they are bulletproof reliable (only use ethanol free gas and Startron). You can get parts and service anywhere you boat. In paralell they ran everything needed in the house after Katrina for the 2 weeks without power (mainly fridge, fans, and bedroom window AC. That was our 13th hurricane, we've had a lot of generators). Even a single running all night is more vibration, noise and fumes than we would want on the boat. Other Brats find no issues. Some have had good luck with Harbor Frieght and other Chinese knock-offs, but getting service or parts can be a problem. There is room on the TC255 engine bracket for two generators, but you'd have to store them somewhere else and that would eat up WAY too much storage space. The bracket is awash and sprayed coming on or off plane.

We found the RV 'heat strips' undesirable because the fan blows so hard even on 'low' that the air doesn't feel warm. A West portable or ceramic heater works better for us.
Although the Coleman Marine version has more stainless parts, I'm not sure it's worth the price delta over the Power Saver, which would be my choice. We trip a breaker when we have AC on with the coffee pot and electric skillet making breakfast. Rememeber you've only got 30 amps grand total to play with. No hair dryers on the boat. The 'AC outlets' breaker controls both the GFI outlet under the table and the downstream AC outlet behind the helm seat.

You are doing some very thorough research and it will pay off.

Best,
John
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Second. With all the chart plotters having wifi and supporting a second station on a Pad , including full control of your system, do you really need a second MFD?


Tom, it depends on what you want. In my experience (Garmin and RayMarine) although the I pad mirrors and controls what is on the MFD, it cannot bring up separate displays. For example, I like to have close view charts, far view charts, the depth sounder graph, and radar--although that would fit on a single 10" screen, it is way too small to be of much use.

Quote:
I can only find "easy start" units for larger AC units. They usually cost in the neighborhood of $400-500. Are these the units people are talking about? Seems like a lot of money for starting a $100 air conditioner (at least in my case).


As for theEasy Start
The EasyStart 364 is up to 4 ton units, and works well on any of the RV or marine air conditioners for $299. You can buy the board, and it starts with units as low as 10,000 BTU, but it is mostly for building your own circuits--and not well supported by the tech support.

The "Smart start" is by dometic is $467.50 at one of the online discounters. It was made specifically for the small RV units.

To run a 5,000 BTU ($119 at WalMart) you only need a EU 1000I Honda--and no need for a smart or easy start unit.

There are cheap single capacitors, (Supco) which do decrease the starting load for abut$12, but they don't resolve the issue of running a 12,000 BTU RV air conditioner on a 2000 watt Honda.

Quote:
Even a single running all night is more vibration, noise and fumes than we would want on the boat. Other Brats find no issues. Some have had good luck with Harbor Frieght and other Chinese knock-offs, but getting service or parts can be a problem. There is room on the TC255 engine bracket for two generators, but you'd have to store them somewhere else and that would eat up WAY too much storage space. The bracket is awash and sprayed coming on or off plane.


The reason we went with the Polar Cub 9200 BTU AC (no smart start) was that we could run it on a Honda EU2000i--and did run it, with zero issues on the boat at night. We had a 3 gallon aux tank. I find that the Honda generator is less noise and vibration etc, than many of the diesel generators (5 to 12 KW) that I have had built in my larger boats. I know of people who have built in diesel generators, and run a Honda at night as a preference. If you are going to be at the dock every, or most nights, then by all means go with the larger air conditioner. If the Honda with an EasyStart, will run a 12,000 BTU air conditioner and that is what you need, then go for it.

We found that the only need for air conditioning for us, was at night. I do fine working at home in 85 to 95 degrees--it is called "conditioning". We have spent over 3 years total in true tropical waters on sailboats with no air conditioning--and only a couple of nights was it really uncomfortable (solution, find an air conditioned bar and party all night--that was 40 years ago~!) When we went to trawlers and motor boats, in Florida with no breeze, then we wanted air conditioning at night. Even on the hottest day, we find we can cool the boat down at night with the 5,000 BTU cheap window air conditioner on a 22 or 25 C Dory. With a Honda EU 2000i, and the small air conditioner, it allows us to use at least one induction burner, and the air conditioner at supper time if necessary. (The current 25 uses only induction plates for cooking, plus a small microwave.) We could not heat water and run the air conditioner--but when it is that hot, a sun shower takes care of the water issues. In cooler weather we use the Honda to heat water, cook and use one or two small ceramic heaters. Even at 600 watt setting in SE AK it would take the chill off, using our 1000 watt Honda.

We are at the opposite end of the spectrum from John and his usual modus of staying at docks and having 30 amps of power. (Although as we age, it is a bit more appealing).

As for the knockoffs: I near more tales of failures. A good friend bought one for some heavy duty use--came with a good warrantee from Home Depot. It failed after about 300 hours. The warrantee was denied because the generator company claimed "inadequate oil changes" and wanted $200 to replace or repair the engine.
The unit ran 70 to 90 hours a week, and synthetic oil only was used, with weekly documented oil changes. False economy to buy the cheap generators. I have a Honda which is now close to 40 years old, and still runs fine (only 800/500 watts).
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