The C-Brats Forum Index
HomeForumsMy TopicsCalendarEvent SignupsMemberlistOur C-DorysThe Brat MapPhotos

Solar Charging Battery Bank(s)
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> Electrical and Wiring
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1093
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:36 am    Post subject: Solar Charging Battery Bank(s) Reply with quote

The Existing Set Up:
* Battery banks - 2 (Starting bank and House bank)
* Battery switches - 3 (Starting bank, Parallel and House bank)
* Solar (165W) properly wired to charge House bank only
* Goal - provide some solar charge to both banks while in storage
(or anchored, without running engines, no shore power)

Question: To avoid adding additional solar dedicated to charge Starting
bank, can this bank be charged with existing solar by
* Turn Starting bank switch OFF, Parallel switch ON, House bank ON or
* Turn all 3 battery switches ON ?

Thanks for any input.

Aye.

_________________
It's difficult to win an argument with a smart person and almost impossible to win an argument with a dumb one. So, why do it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DavidM



Joined: 24 Dec 2017
Posts: 153
City/Region: Punta Gorda
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer to your question needs more info:

Are the three switches simple on/off switches.
Where is the solar panel connected now- to the terminals of the house battery maybe.
Where is the parallel switch connected? To the terminals or after the on/off switches.

You need to create a path from the solar panel's output to both batteries. Closing all three switches will do it but depending on how it is wired just closing the parallel switch might do it also.

And I hope you have a solar charge controller between the panels and the battery. Otherwise you will ultimately fry the batteries.

David
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1093
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidM wrote:
The answer to your question needs more info:

Are the three switches simple on/off switches. YES
Where is the solar panel connected now- to the terminals of the house battery maybe. PANELS TO CONTROLLERS, + TO BATTERY BANK, - TO SHUNT AND BATTERY MONITOR THEN TO BATTERY BANK
Where is the parallel switch connected? To the terminals or after the on/off switches. NO IDEA. WHEN 'ON' IT CONNECTS HOUSE TO START BANK

You need to create a path from the solar panel's output to both batteries. Closing all three switches will do it but depending on how it is wired just closing the parallel switch might do it also. THE PATH IS THRU THE PARALLEL SWITCH BY TURNING IT 'ON' WHICH IS ITS PURPOSE TO CONNECT BOTH BANKS

And I hope you have a solar charge controller (ELEMENTARY DEAR WATSON, SEE ABOVE) between the panels and the battery. Otherwise you will ultimately fry the batteries.

David


NOT YELLING. Just for clarity.

Aye.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Art in Fairfield Harbour



Joined: 02 Jul 2017
Posts: 14
City/Region: Fairfield Harbour
State or Province: NC
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: RED TOP
Photos: RED TOP
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Solar Reply with quote

Red Top has 2 10W "charging type" solar panels sitting in the motor well, both connected to the house batteries directly through 10A fuses. I thought the second one was connected to the engine battery, but is not, so I only use one and close all 3 switches to feed both batteries. When it gets cool enough to work in the boat I will switch it to "engine". The only load on the batteries when Red Top is in its slip is the sump pump that runs a lot when it rains heavily here in NC.
_________________
Art Smith
on the Neuse River, NC
KB1TX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 17001
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are the batteries all of the same type and capacity; What type and capacity? What composes each "Bank"?

With 165 watts, there is some chance of overcharging the batteries, when just left in storage for a period of time.

_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1093
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Five batteries, all same Gr 31 AGM: 2 paralleled starting, 3 paralleled house.

Heafty.

Aye.

PS: Owners Manual states parallel battery switch should be 'ON', starting bank
switch 'OFF', house bank switch 'ON' if trolling with starboard engine only.
NB: port engine alternator charges engine bank only. Starboard engine alternator
charges house bank only.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
spuncopper



Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Posts: 194
City/Region: Camden/ Lake Wateree
State or Province: SC
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sock Monkey
Photos: Sock Monkey
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: solar chargers Reply with quote

Hey Foggy,

It might be simpler to wire your solar panels to a solar controller and then to the battery banks. There are solar controller designed for multiple banks. Check Defenders Marine or whoever you prefer.

Defenders has a: Solar Controllers-PWM. their item number is 202322, model number: GP-PWM-30, 30 amp controller. It'll handle two banks.

Good luck, take care and be safe. Spuncopper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1093
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: solar chargers Reply with quote

spuncopper wrote:
Hey Foggy,

It might be simpler to wire your solar panels to a solar controller and then to the battery banks. There are solar controller designed for multiple banks. Check Defenders Marine or whoever you prefer.

Defenders has a: Solar Controllers-PWM. their item number is 202322, model number: GP-PWM-30, 30 amp controller. It'll handle two banks.

Good luck, take care and be safe. Spuncopper


The wiring exists now and is a done deal. It works well.
Two panels; one 55W, one 110W. Each has its own Genasun MPPT controller
(GV-5, GV-10). Positive from each controller goes to + house bank. Negative
from each controller goes to shunt to Watt Wizard monitor and to - house bank.
This is not my question.

I want to use this currant to get to the start bank via the battery parallel switch
rather than purchase another solar panel dedicated to the start bank.

But thanks anyway.

Aye.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 17001
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though you have a fairly hefty set of batteries, if you are cranking the full 12 amps at 14 volts into the batteries-- with the two controllers you have, I believe there is probably some voltage/amperage limits when the battery is "full"--after reading the brochure. You may want to verify this, by watching the voltage when your Watt Wizzard shows that the batteries are at 100% State of Charge. Unfortunately the Watt Wizzard, does not measure the State of Charge. I would charge the batteries with the shore power charger, until they are in float stage--battery voltage 13.2 to 13. 6, with the solar panels off. Then turn on the solar panels--if the voltage goes up, then you may need to put a voltage limiting diode on the output of the solar panels, to be used only when the boat is in storage.

To charge the engine battery from the solar system, you need only to parallel the two battery banks, This gives you one bank of 5 group 31 AGM batteries. The capacity is somewhere in the 550 to 600 amp hours. Most likely the 12 amps will not be an issue. But to be safe it would be nice to limit the voltage to 13.5 +/- when the boat is in storage and you just want to float the batteries.



In reality the AGM have extremely low self discharge, and can go months without charging. However, we don't know what loads are on the house (or engine) batteries. For example, many MDF have some parasitic drain, stereo's do. There are bilge pumps, which may be sampling every few minutes, by turning on, or using a sensor.

There also may be intentional loads--the refrigerator is left on so your beer is cold when you arrive at the boat, the anchor light if the boat is on a mooring etc.
Your Watt Wizzard should tell you the number of amp hours or watts used over a period of time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1093
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Even though you have a fairly hefty set of batteries, if you are cranking the full 12 amps at 14 volts into the batteries-- with the two controllers you have, I believe there is probably some voltage/amperage limits when the battery is "full"--after reading the brochure. You may want to verify this, by watching the voltage when your Watt Wizzard shows that the batteries are at 100% State of Charge. Unfortunately the Watt Wizzard, does not measure the State of Charge. I would charge the batteries with the shore power charger, until they are in float stage--battery voltage 13.2 to 13. 6, with the solar panels off. Then turn on the solar panels--if the voltage goes up, then you may need to put a voltage limiting diode on the output of the solar panels, to be used only when the boat is in storage.
I CAN READ STATE OF CHARGE OF EITHER BANK FROM AN ANALOG METER.
EACH SOLAR PANEL HAS A LIMITING DIODE. THEY ARE ALWAYS 'ON' ALTHOUGH
DO NOT DELIVER CHARGE IF BATTERY CHARGER IS 'ON' OR BANK IS EQUALIZED.
THIS DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE A PROBLEM.

To charge the engine battery from the solar system, you need only to parallel the two battery banks, This gives you one bank of 5 group 31 AGM batteries. The capacity is somewhere in the 550 to 600 amp hours. Most likely the 12 amps will not be an issue. But to be safe it would be nice to limit the voltage to 13.5 +/- when the boat is in storage and you just want to float the batteries.
THANKS. THIS WAS WHAT I SUSPECTED AND WAS AFTER CONFIRMATION.
CURIOUSLY, THE SOLAR PANEL REP DID NOT VOLUNTEER THIS AS A
POSSIBILITY - JUST SUGGESTED I PURCHASE ANOTHER SOLAR PANEL
(PLUS ACCESSORIES)...'Thumbs Down'
SNIP


MY RESPONSE QUIETLY IN CAPS ABOVE.

Aye.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
spuncopper



Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Posts: 194
City/Region: Camden/ Lake Wateree
State or Province: SC
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sock Monkey
Photos: Sock Monkey
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: solar charging Reply with quote

Hello Foggy,
I have the tendency use the K.I.S.S. principal with linear thinking.
I understand you want to use the panels and system already installed.

You could turn all three switches on to connect the system and it would probably slowly charge the batteries. However, you have bypassed the reasons you have three switches. They system will always try to charge the weakest battery bank.

Without having to install another solar panel, I would suggest you purchase a solar controller that will charge two battery banks. Run the first leg to the back of the disconnect switch of bank one and connect it to the battery lug.

Run the second leg to the back of the disconnect switch of bank two and connect it to the battery lug.

Since you have a parallel switch you already have a common ground so run the needed ground wires.

The solar charger will read both banks and charge whichever one needs charging or split the charge and charge both, slowly.

This way you can leave all your switches off and still charge.

Take care and be safe. Spuncopper
[/u]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1093
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Spuncopper for your KISS suggestion.

My KISS solution is to not fuss with the existing controllers and wiring but use the
battery parallel switch to turn my 2 banks into 1 bank.

IF I decide to add another solar panel, it may be portable and smaller using the
Fox-062 mini plug-in charge controller (100a max, battery type selectable) via
my helm cigar lighter to charge my start bank. This might meet both our KISS
preferences.

Also, I can use it for my roadster and rent it to others who wish to get charged up.

Aye.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 17001
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I CAN READ STATE OF CHARGE OF EITHER BANK FROM AN ANALOG METER.


Yes, and I have a slide rule which does certain calculations well. There is a reason that many boaters use a Coulomb counter type of SOC meter, such as the Victron 702, Xantrex Linklite/LinkPro, Clipper BM1, Blue Seas M2, Balmar SM 44 Smart Guage, etc

As Blue Seas puts it: " The Voltmeter MethodóMonitoring voltage allows measurement of the potential charge of your battery. The difference from a fully charged battery to a fully discharged one is only 1.0V in a 12V system, so the meter must have good resolution and accuracy. This method is generally sufficient to monitor batteries which experience intermittent use, such as starter or thruster batteries. However, a battery must not have been charged or discharged for over 12 hours for this measurement to be trustworthy.This makes this method unsuitable for monitoring house batteries, which are in a charge or discharge pattern much of the time"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1093
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Quote:
I CAN READ STATE OF CHARGE OF EITHER BANK FROM AN ANALOG METER.


Yes, and I have a slide rule which does certain calculations well. There is a reason that many boaters use a Coulomb counter type of SOC meter, such as the Victron 702, Xantrex Linklite/LinkPro, Clipper BM1, Blue Seas M2, Balmar SM 44 Smart Guage, etc

As Blue Seas puts it: " The Voltmeter MethodóMonitoring voltage allows measurement of the potential charge of your battery. The difference from a fully charged battery to a fully discharged one is only 1.0V in a 12V system, so the meter must have good resolution and accuracy. This method is generally sufficient to monitor batteries which experience intermittent use, such as starter or thruster batteries. However, a battery must not have been charged or discharged for over 12 hours for this measurement to be trustworthy.This makes this method unsuitable for monitoring house batteries, which are in a charge or discharge pattern much of the time"


Well, Bob, you're probably correct technically given there can always be
improvements made. But you must realize your way, along with many boaters,
is not the only way to satisfaction in operating an otherwise seaworthy vessel
with an acceptable energy management system. Granted a 1.0V delta is a lot
in a 12V battery. Since my analog voltmeter reads voltage in 0.2V increments,
I have a good idea of their state of charge without the needs of a battery 'geek'.
As previously stated this is not a problem.

Blue Seas, and others, sell marine electronic equipment which I have owned and
respect knowing they would like us to purchase many of their products which we
may not need for the benefit of being 'better' than what we now use.

In addition to admiring the KISS principle, I usually go with 'if it's not broke,
don't fix it'.

Aye.
Grandpa used to say "We stand on the shoulders of giants" and quote Aristotle,
"The mark of an educated mind is the ability to entertain a thought without
accepting it."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Wandering Sagebrush



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 2665
City/Region: Canby, Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Quote:
I CAN READ STATE OF CHARGE OF EITHER BANK FROM AN ANALOG METER.


Yes, and I have a slide rule which does certain calculations well
<snip>


Iíve still got my old Pickett 1010 Power Trig Rule Laughing . If I could just remember how to use anything beyond simple multiply and divide.

_________________
"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." - Abraham Lincoln
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The C-Brats Forum Index -> Electrical and Wiring All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
     Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Page generation time: 0.096s (PHP: 71% - SQL: 29%) - SQL queries: 32 - GZIP disabled - Debug on