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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Judgment would develop faster if surviving stupid hurt.
Aye. _________________ "I don't want any cake" - said no one ever.
If someone tells you they don't eat cake, unfriend them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life. |
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Aurelia
Joined: 21 Aug 2009 Posts: 2331 City/Region: Gig Harbor
State or Province: WA
Photos: Aurelia
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Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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It hurts alright,
There was a guy with poor judgement who decided to jump off a bridge to cool down in a swift moving river. He picked a crummy spot to jump and/or jumped poorly and ended up impaled (all the way through is abdomen and out the other side) but alive on a long, bent section of rebar torn away from the bridge footing by river action, slightly above that swift moving water. Our team cut the bar loose (leaving the piece running through him)and pulled him back to safety and he lived. But he was sure feeling the pain of his mistake during the rescue operation.
Greg _________________ Greg, Cindie & Aven
Gig Harbor
Aurelia - 25 Cruiser sold 2012
Ari - 19 Cruiser sold 2023
currently exploring with "Lia", 17 ft Bullfrog Supersport Pilothouse |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Aurelia wrote: | It hurts alright,
There was a guy with poor judgement who decided to jump off a bridge to cool down in a swift moving river. He picked a crummy spot to jump and/or jumped poorly and ended up impaled (all the way through is abdomen and out the other side) but alive on a long, bent section of rebar torn away from the bridge footing by river action, slightly above that swift moving water. Our team cut the bar loose (leaving the piece running through him)and pulled him back to safety and he lived. But he was sure feeling the pain of his mistake during the rescue operation.
Greg |
Sassy good job Greg! Sounds improper to leave the bugger shish kabobed but
removing the skewer on site would violate EMS protocol and put him into the
Darwin Awards (www.darwinaward.com) as a serious fatal contestant.
As he lived, in this case, I'm sure stupid hurt and his judgement developed
very rapidly to better plan his prospective jump sites...
Aye. |
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dotnmarty
Joined: 03 Nov 2003 Posts: 4196 City/Region: Sammamish
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: LIZZIE II
Photos: Lizzie
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Well since we're on a roll describing how dumb people are and how so many (although not us of course) lack common sense, and on and on down that rabbit hole, let me add one more. Responding to a motorcycle accident, after cutting thru the brush on the side of the road we found the guy, unconscious. He woke up in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. His first words were "How's my rider" _________________ MartyP
"...we're all in the same boat..." |
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rogerbum
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 5922 City/Region: Kenmore
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Meant to be
Photos: SeaDNA
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: |
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AstoriaDave wrote: | thataway wrote: | All the more reason, if the kayaker is foolish enough to go out in wind or seas, to take a waterproof VHF radio, and be able to call for help. Better to have the judgement to not go. | And how does one develop judgment? By flirting with the edge of the envelope. This tale is on me ... and an illustration of why I do not point fingers at others out learning where the edge of their envelope is. Never needed a rescue ... but I have been close. This was one of those times.
http://www.nwkayaking.net/?page_id=365 |
Flirting with the edge of the envelope is not necessary to develop judgement. Knowledge is key. You can gain the knowledge both directly and indirectly. For some only direct knowledge seems to stick, others are able to learn from the experiences of those around them. That's one of the reasons why forums such as this are good. I can read about boating adventures and misadventures and learn a lot about what not to do without ever coming close to doing that thing. _________________ Roger on Meant to be |
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Hunkydory
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 2660 City/Region: Cokeville, Wyoming
State or Province: WY
C-Dory Year: 2000
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hunkydory
Photos: Hunkydory-Jay-and-Jolee
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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If you have an adventurous spirit that is drawn to challenges of the mind & body & decide to pursue them, then the inherent risk that comes with the doing must be accepted. You can read endlessly about others who do this & about their preparation for it & a lot can be learned, but how you will react to a bad situation can only be learned by experiencing it & that to me means the outer envelope must be pushed. From studying about others who have accomplished or failed at what you would like to achieve, one can learn about the risk involved & be better prepared, but no matter how prepared or knowledgeable one has become, equipment you depend on can fail or sickness/injury or even just plain bad luck occur. Besides the challenge for many like me are strictly personnel, not a race to be won against other individuals & just because someone else has been able to accomplish something doesn’t mean you can or in the opposite you can’t.
Those who don’t have this spirit have a hard time comprehending the actions of those that do & of those that do, the higher the inherent risk & the less prepared, certainly increases the failure odds. Personally, I favor freedom of choice with very few restrictions of what one can choose to do, as long as the hazards involved are known. Let Darwinism sort out the dumb or even in some cases the unlucky, as I’m not in favor of extremely risky rescues either. I’ve spent most of my life engaged in numerous forms of risky behavior pushing the envelope of what I thought myself capable with the only time needing to be rescued, being trying to keep up with someone else more skilled in what we were doing, instead of just challenging myself & yes it hurt & a tough lesson learned.
Jay _________________ Jay and Jolee 2000 22 CD cruiser Hunkydory
I will not waste my days in trying to prolong them------Jack London
https://share.delorme.com/JuliusByers |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3382 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hunkydory wrote: | ... Personally, I favor freedom of choice with very few restrictions of what one can choose to do, as long as the hazards involved are known. ... |
I generally agree with your statement as long as the consequences of failure only affect the person(s) who willingly choose to participate. When you put non-participants or even your rescuers (or maybe recovery personnel) in potential harm you have overstepped this limit and the choice of what is acceptable risk is no longer solely yours to make. |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Something must have been right for me taking risks when I was much younger as
I can now write about it. But things change and I wouldn't now do much of what I
did then.
Like, the name of my first boat was "Edge Finder'. Imagine.
Aye. |
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AstoriaDave
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 994 City/Region: Astoria
State or Province: OR
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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rogerbum wrote: Flirting with the edge of the envelope is not necessary to develop judgement. Knowledge is key. You can gain the knowledge both directly and indirectly. For some only direct knowledge seems to stick, others are able to learn from the experiences of those around them. That's one of the reasons why forums such as this are good. I can read about boating adventures and misadventures and learn a lot about what not to do without ever coming close to doing that thing.__
Basically, I think rogerbum and I are on the same page, with each of us perhaps pretty well attuned to translating vicarious experiences, aka the disasters of others, into avoidance of similar snafus of our own.
Sometimes, however, one gets into a bad situation he can not reasonably anticipate ... because he does not know what he does not know. In short, he is ignorant.
Maybe this anecdote will clarify the distinction:
On a WW raft trip in 1973, I almost drowned in Boulder Rapid on the Skykomish River, because I was ignorant of how a sousehole traps a swimmer. Fortunately, thanks to an experienced kayaker who prepped us beforehand, I had fresh secondhand information on how to escape one: swim down into the laminar flow of the river. I might not be here today without that advice.
To complete the anecdote, I had a sh#tload of experience bodysurfing big surf in my youth, which taught me that swimming down was a smart move in thunderous, aerated water. Without all that flirting with the edge of the envelope, I might not have paid attention to the kayaker when she said, "Go down to get away from whitewater."
YMMV. _________________ Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR |
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kennharriet
Joined: 22 Jan 2009 Posts: 510 City/Region: Grangeville
State or Province: ID
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Lochsa
Photos: Lochsa
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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"Good judgment comes from experience. Most experience comes from bad judgment" |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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If you never dare to explore the edge, go where you are not comfortable, I feel
you do not grow.
Doing something you may be afraid to do, knowing the risks and being prepared,
and doing it anyway builds self reliance and confidence.
Yes, experience is a great teacher. So is making mistakes if your head is on right.
The goal is competent awareness. This decreases fear. It is different for everyone.
Just because another had a bad experience does not mean, if you repeated it
under similar conditions, it will be the same for you.
Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "Always do your homework." |
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Pacificcoast101
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 717 City/Region: Torrance
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: No Pressure
Photos: No Pressure
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Hunkydory
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 2660 City/Region: Cokeville, Wyoming
State or Province: WY
C-Dory Year: 2000
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hunkydory
Photos: Hunkydory-Jay-and-Jolee
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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Foggy wrote: | If you never dare to explore the edge, go where you are not comfortable, I feel
you do not grow.
Doing something you may be afraid to do, knowing the risks and being prepared,
and doing it anyway builds self reliance and confidence.
Yes, experience is a great teacher. So is making mistakes if your head is on right.
The goal is competent awareness. This decreases fear. It is different for everyone.
Just because another had a bad experience does not mean, if you repeated it
under similar conditions, it will be the same for you.
Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "Always do your homework." |
I’m pleased to say on this I’m in complete agreement with you & Grandpa. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20829 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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I am more of the read as much as you can about a subject, and try and analyze and learn from the mistakes of others. I had decided I wanted to do World cruising when I was 15 or 16. I started reading all I could find about long distance sailing the. I also received many letters from people who were doing this--as well as those who failed, and lived to tell about it. The patterns of those who did not survive became very clear. They had not studied, analyzed and prepared. Just like those folks didn't listen to the weather forecast.
That does not mean that one never pushes the envelope--but to do it with planing an in a "smart way" is important. Today one can do this by watching videos on the internet--and reading many more stories than were ever printed.
The other is training--such as a pilot goes thru, or the kayaker or diver should go thru---create the emergency scenario under controlled circumstances.
For example, how many of the c Brats have really done a man overboard drill? Don't meant throw out a cushion. But (with a wet suit on), all of a sudden leave the helm, and jump overboard--to allow your partner the real experience of having to take over the boat. Get a life-sling or floating cushion/life ring to the person in the water, and then getting them back aboard the boat!
The fellow who jumped off the bridge--if he had know there was debris, and there was very swift water--judgement should have kept him from jumping---you cannot fix stupid.... _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1521 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Also, have you noticed this?
More reasons not to argue: It's difficult to win an argument
with a dumb person and it's impossible to win an argument
with a really smart person.
Aye. |
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