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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judgment would develop faster if surviving stupid hurt.

Aye.

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Aurelia



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It hurts alright,

There was a guy with poor judgement who decided to jump off a bridge to cool down in a swift moving river. He picked a crummy spot to jump and/or jumped poorly and ended up impaled (all the way through is abdomen and out the other side) but alive on a long, bent section of rebar torn away from the bridge footing by river action, slightly above that swift moving water. Our team cut the bar loose (leaving the piece running through him)and pulled him back to safety and he lived. But he was sure feeling the pain of his mistake during the rescue operation.

Greg

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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
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City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
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Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aurelia wrote:
It hurts alright,

There was a guy with poor judgement who decided to jump off a bridge to cool down in a swift moving river. He picked a crummy spot to jump and/or jumped poorly and ended up impaled (all the way through is abdomen and out the other side) but alive on a long, bent section of rebar torn away from the bridge footing by river action, slightly above that swift moving water. Our team cut the bar loose (leaving the piece running through him)and pulled him back to safety and he lived. But he was sure feeling the pain of his mistake during the rescue operation.

Greg


Sassy good job Greg! Sounds improper to leave the bugger shish kabobed but
removing the skewer on site would violate EMS protocol and put him into the
Darwin Awards (www.darwinaward.com) as a serious fatal contestant.

As he lived, in this case, I'm sure stupid hurt and his judgement developed
very rapidly to better plan his prospective jump sites...

Aye.
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dotnmarty



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well since we're on a roll describing how dumb people are and how so many (although not us of course) lack common sense, and on and on down that rabbit hole, let me add one more. Responding to a motorcycle accident, after cutting thru the brush on the side of the road we found the guy, unconscious. He woke up in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. His first words were "How's my rider"
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AstoriaDave wrote:
thataway wrote:
All the more reason, if the kayaker is foolish enough to go out in wind or seas, to take a waterproof VHF radio, and be able to call for help. Better to have the judgement to not go.
And how does one develop judgment? By flirting with the edge of the envelope. This tale is on me ... and an illustration of why I do not point fingers at others out learning where the edge of their envelope is. Never needed a rescue ... but I have been close. This was one of those times.

http://www.nwkayaking.net/?page_id=365


Flirting with the edge of the envelope is not necessary to develop judgement. Knowledge is key. You can gain the knowledge both directly and indirectly. For some only direct knowledge seems to stick, others are able to learn from the experiences of those around them. That's one of the reasons why forums such as this are good. I can read about boating adventures and misadventures and learn a lot about what not to do without ever coming close to doing that thing.

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Hunkydory



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have an adventurous spirit that is drawn to challenges of the mind & body & decide to pursue them, then the inherent risk that comes with the doing must be accepted. You can read endlessly about others who do this & about their preparation for it & a lot can be learned, but how you will react to a bad situation can only be learned by experiencing it & that to me means the outer envelope must be pushed. From studying about others who have accomplished or failed at what you would like to achieve, one can learn about the risk involved & be better prepared, but no matter how prepared or knowledgeable one has become, equipment you depend on can fail or sickness/injury or even just plain bad luck occur. Besides the challenge for many like me are strictly personnel, not a race to be won against other individuals & just because someone else has been able to accomplish something doesn’t mean you can or in the opposite you can’t.

Those who don’t have this spirit have a hard time comprehending the actions of those that do & of those that do, the higher the inherent risk & the less prepared, certainly increases the failure odds. Personally, I favor freedom of choice with very few restrictions of what one can choose to do, as long as the hazards involved are known. Let Darwinism sort out the dumb or even in some cases the unlucky, as I’m not in favor of extremely risky rescues either. I’ve spent most of my life engaged in numerous forms of risky behavior pushing the envelope of what I thought myself capable with the only time needing to be rescued, being trying to keep up with someone else more skilled in what we were doing, instead of just challenging myself & yes it hurt & a tough lesson learned.

Jay

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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hunkydory wrote:
... Personally, I favor freedom of choice with very few restrictions of what one can choose to do, as long as the hazards involved are known. ...


I generally agree with your statement as long as the consequences of failure only affect the person(s) who willingly choose to participate. When you put non-participants or even your rescuers (or maybe recovery personnel) in potential harm you have overstepped this limit and the choice of what is acceptable risk is no longer solely yours to make.
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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something must have been right for me taking risks when I was much younger as
I can now write about it. But things change and I wouldn't now do much of what I
did then.

Like, the name of my first boat was "Edge Finder'. Imagine.

Aye.
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AstoriaDave



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogerbum wrote: Flirting with the edge of the envelope is not necessary to develop judgement. Knowledge is key. You can gain the knowledge both directly and indirectly. For some only direct knowledge seems to stick, others are able to learn from the experiences of those around them. That's one of the reasons why forums such as this are good. I can read about boating adventures and misadventures and learn a lot about what not to do without ever coming close to doing that thing.__

Basically, I think rogerbum and I are on the same page, with each of us perhaps pretty well attuned to translating vicarious experiences, aka the disasters of others, into avoidance of similar snafus of our own.

Sometimes, however, one gets into a bad situation he can not reasonably anticipate ... because he does not know what he does not know. In short, he is ignorant.

Maybe this anecdote will clarify the distinction:

On a WW raft trip in 1973, I almost drowned in Boulder Rapid on the Skykomish River, because I was ignorant of how a sousehole traps a swimmer. Fortunately, thanks to an experienced kayaker who prepped us beforehand, I had fresh secondhand information on how to escape one: swim down into the laminar flow of the river. I might not be here today without that advice.

To complete the anecdote, I had a sh#tload of experience bodysurfing big surf in my youth, which taught me that swimming down was a smart move in thunderous, aerated water. Without all that flirting with the edge of the envelope, I might not have paid attention to the kayaker when she said, "Go down to get away from whitewater."

YMMV.

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kennharriet



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Good judgment comes from experience. Most experience comes from bad judgment" Very Happy
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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you never dare to explore the edge, go where you are not comfortable, I feel
you do not grow.

Doing something you may be afraid to do, knowing the risks and being prepared,
and doing it anyway builds self reliance and confidence.

Yes, experience is a great teacher. So is making mistakes if your head is on right.

The goal is competent awareness. This decreases fear. It is different for everyone.
Just because another had a bad experience does not mean, if you repeated it
under similar conditions, it will be the same for you.

Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "Always do your homework."
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Pacificcoast101



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Famous last words;
Hey, Y'all. Watch this!

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Hunkydory



Joined: 28 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foggy wrote:
If you never dare to explore the edge, go where you are not comfortable, I feel
you do not grow.

Doing something you may be afraid to do, knowing the risks and being prepared,
and doing it anyway builds self reliance and confidence.

Yes, experience is a great teacher. So is making mistakes if your head is on right.

The goal is competent awareness. This decreases fear. It is different for everyone.
Just because another had a bad experience does not mean, if you repeated it
under similar conditions, it will be the same for you.

Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "Always do your homework."


I’m pleased to say on this I’m in complete agreement with you & Grandpa. Thumbs Up
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thataway



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am more of the read as much as you can about a subject, and try and analyze and learn from the mistakes of others. I had decided I wanted to do World cruising when I was 15 or 16. I started reading all I could find about long distance sailing the. I also received many letters from people who were doing this--as well as those who failed, and lived to tell about it. The patterns of those who did not survive became very clear. They had not studied, analyzed and prepared. Just like those folks didn't listen to the weather forecast.

That does not mean that one never pushes the envelope--but to do it with planing an in a "smart way" is important. Today one can do this by watching videos on the internet--and reading many more stories than were ever printed.

The other is training--such as a pilot goes thru, or the kayaker or diver should go thru---create the emergency scenario under controlled circumstances.

For example, how many of the c Brats have really done a man overboard drill? Don't meant throw out a cushion. But (with a wet suit on), all of a sudden leave the helm, and jump overboard--to allow your partner the real experience of having to take over the boat. Get a life-sling or floating cushion/life ring to the person in the water, and then getting them back aboard the boat!

The fellow who jumped off the bridge--if he had know there was debris, and there was very swift water--judgement should have kept him from jumping---you cannot fix stupid....

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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, have you noticed this?

More reasons not to argue: It's difficult to win an argument
with a dumb person and it's impossible to win an argument
with a really smart person.

Aye.
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