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It finally happened to me..FOG AT NIGHT
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smckean (Tosca)



Joined: 18 Jan 2014
Posts: 974
City/Region: Guemes Island (Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tosca
Photos: Tosca
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aiviq,

Wonderful story.....well told too!
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second the great story! There were a few things 40 years ago...Depth sounders have always been helpful--lead line, circular flashers, and all that we have now. Also Electronics--use of AM or Beacon Band Radio--may not have had any of that in AK.

Some of the boats got used Airplane nav systems, with their VOR which was fully deployed by 1946, They put the VOR antennas on the top of the mast, and used the VOR location services to triangulate or follow beams, superimposed on the nautical charts.

There was Loran A-(where you had to actually match Time delay lines, with an oscilloscope. Then Loran C--first the Time delay lines, and then Lot and Long conversions. Omega was also available 40 years ago, and I picked up a navy surplus set (it was huge, but I had a big boat then. Worked pretty well.

Radar was prohibitively expensive back then--and you needed a lot of power--and someplace to put that big antenna.

But as you point out--listening, smelling, and feeling (the sea waves will change as they come to points or junctions of current.

But the most frightening thing to me, was the big deep fog horn of a large ship--and then the "thump, thump, thump" of that huge prop going thru the water.

The current Standard Marine, Hailer will "listen" between the fog signals.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lot's of good advice here. Something I didn't see: You should be using your radar all the time. (Yup, I know there are nay sayers, but there are 2 good reasons.) 1. You see what it shows in relation to what you can see, on the good days, and that helps build trust for those cold,dark, foggy nights when you can't see your bow pulpit. 2. If you have radar, then it is considered a navagational adjunct, and it is in the "ColRegs" that you should be using every available means to avoid a collision. (Sorry, I don't have that with me, but that topic has been runover here before, if you want to do that search.)

And if I remember right, your radar is below belt level on the Camano so I'd recommend lead longjohns if you are running the boat from upstairs. Or like you did, send your buddy up there Rolling Eyes

Something else I didn't see. Be able to run your radar in chart overlay mode and calibrate it there so you can trust what you are seeing.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the CG AMALGAMATED NAVIGATION RULES

"Below is an amalgamation of the International (72 COLREGS) and Inland Navigation Rules, their Annexes, and associated federal rules and regulations."

Quote:
Rule 7 - Risk of Collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.

(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:

(i) Such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change.
(ii) Such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.


Overlay is debatable. Some of the newer radars can distinguish what is on the chart, vs radar--but in many it is difficult. I recommend that new users look at both (if they can overlay--there are a lot of variables there--for some systems it requires a special heading indicator--others this is built in.) Also there are still some very good stand alone radars. For years the Furuno 6" and 7" Radars were the best buys--this has changed in the last few years.

In fog, I prefer to radar alone on one screen, the chart plotter on the other, so a buoy is not confused for a kayak and visa versa.

Not being a "nay sayer"

Although I agree that new users should be running radar in clear weather to lean , I don't run radar all of the time for several reasons: Magnetrons have a limited life span. I want all of my attention for on the water hazards in clear weather-- the Radar may not pick up all targets (i.e. stand up paddle boards, Kayaks and other small boats or debris on the water) The Colregs say
Quote:
appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions

Although I have been running radar for over 35 years, I still do turn it on regularly during good visibility to be sure all is functioning well--and to check the tuning--which you should learn to do--not just depend on "auto tune". In rain and fog, it may be optimally tuned differently than in clear weather.

Also note that the CG is now emphasizing long range scanning. I see many who buy radar, and say "i only care what is within a mile of me". The problem is that often closing speeds can be 40 or more knots. That is over 3500 feet per minute or almost 60 feet each second! Ideally two radars: one close up--and the other longer range. Some radars allow dual screen.

Do you have to have radar--no.... If you are operating in dark, fog or rain--it is sure nice to have.
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob, Thanks for that post. I don't have a new radar but the one I have (RayMarine) still works well and has saved my bacon on several occasions. I have found white kayaks in thick fog and watched the WAferry out of Friday Harbor come up from behind at twice my speed. The AIS gave me the CPA & TCPA along with the name to confirm they were turning to stbd before they would reach me.

The scan long range part is new I think, but since I only have one radar, the range varies depending on my location. It is different in the Strait vs up in the islands, (6 or 12 miles for crossing the strait vs 1 or 3 miles in the islands.)

I use the radar overlay on the plotter, and have AIS on that screen too. For me that helps with tracking. I would love to have one of the new radars with the color coded hits, but the AIS triangle points in the direction of travel so that helps.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon
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Marco Flamingo



Joined: 09 Jul 2015
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City/Region: Seattle
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C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Limpet
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My creepiest fog experience was years ago up by Echo Bay. I was going through some small islets and got socked in. No RADAR, no LORAN, just dead reckoning going dead slow. I calculated that after a short crossing I should next see shoreline appearing on port. The fog got dark to starboard and suddenly trees appeared. No way was that possible. I had the scariest sense of vertigo ever. I sat in 20 feet of water and tried to figure out where I was. Nothing made any sense. It turned out that I had come to the shoreline to port, but into a tiny little harbor where the trees to starboard appeared first.

My preference in fog is still to sit in 20 feet of water and wait it out. I'm not sure that having RADAR would change that.

Mark
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dotnmarty



Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 4196
City/Region: Sammamish
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: LIZZIE II
Photos: Lizzie
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some years ago, during a C-Brat get together at Sequim, we, the group, took a small cruise to a neighboring village. On the way back we hit a dense fog bank. Everybody was using whatever they had.their radar, gps track, and horns. Over the radio comes a call, "hey guys, I'm lost in the fog". Our boats answer, "do you have gps or radar?" "No, but I have a whistle". Somebody directs him to blow it as loud as he can. We all kept quiet and the lost boat was located and guided to safety.
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"...we're all in the same boat..."
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When sailing from Santa Cruz Island back to Long Beach, about 15 miles out of Ventura, we came upon a 15 foot skiff , motoring slowly in the fog. They asked us where Ventura harbor was. I gave them a compass bearing. "No, we don't have a compass--just point the way." We did--I guess they must have made it!.
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starcrafttom



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
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City/Region: marysville
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C-Dory Year: 1984
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here is my Fog story and how I got my wife to demand that we spend $3000 on electronic.

First trip to the Sj's in our own boat. 19ft starcraft with a 76 70hp outboard ,a depth finder, and hand held gps with no mapping. We book a room at the Lopez Islander a month in advance ( Yes this is a clear example of the " got to get there " that I am always talking about.) and show up to Washington park ramp to rain and fog. We asked several boats coming in how bad was the fog and got several different answers from Ok to bad. We see it was clearing, from where we were standing, so we headed out. About half way across Rosario strait we could not see a thing. This puts us in the shipping lane . We did not know what was in front of us, which way we were really headed but west ( currents were new to me at the time) , What was around us or where we wanted to go. That is when another boat went by and I decided that I needed to go where he was going where ever that was because his boat was bigger and he had a fancy GPS mapping thingy on his dash. He did NOT have radar. But at least he knew where he was. All that had to be seen and decided in 3 seconds or he was going to be gone on the fog too. Throttle up and tuck in tight to his ass like I was in heat. The first thing that I saw as we slowed and speed up depending on the fog thickness that I recognized was the Red light at Fauntleroy Pt on Decator. That was the first thing I saw other then the boat I was following and fog.

During the trip we heard the ferry go by at 20 knots but never saw it. It was with in 100yrds or less of us twice. We stopped and got out of the way for several other big cruiser in the fog. The next thing we could see was upright head . Thats when the fog lifted and we could go our own way to the resort. That means we traveled about 20 miles in the fog with no idea where we were.

What did we learn? That we should not have gone at all. We missed the first chance to be safe and not go until and if the weather cleared. Why did we not make that discussion? Because I had paid in advance for a room in a resort that was hard for me to afford at the time and , say it with me. "WE HAD TO GET THERE". We also made the discussion to BUY radar for the next boat at the least and a MFD with mapping and radar over lay at best.

That day on the water was a complete fail even thought we made it. We failed to make the right choose to not go. We failed to wait for better weather and we failed to use the tools we did have, compass and charts, correctly and from the start. Trying to figure out where you are in the fog with a compass and chart is a lost cause once you are in the fog. We should have set a course from the ramp to the Fauntleroy light BEFORE we set out.

I only post this for one reason, other then its funny if you live. I do get asked about the islands and where to go and how to do things because people see me on the site in the islands all the time. What I have learned from others is important but what we learn by failing is far more important. I could tell this story as a "I'm so good or lucky that I got away with it and its not that big of deal having radar" but that is the story that assholes tell ( no commits please) . I failed that day and put my wife at risk. If I can not learn or educate with that failure then I have learned nothing.

Get the radar or dont but learn to make the right choices for go, no go first.

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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not all fog experiences are bad. One of the most amazing whale watch trips I had was in fog. I left from Friday Harbor with a private charter - a group of extreme sports athletes. They had been in the San Juans for a week and this was their last shot at getting out on a whale watch.

We departed in a light fog with decreasing visibility as we went south through Cattle Pass. One of our other boats told me they had "a hole, with a quarter mile visibility and whales." They were departing, and gave me lat/lon. By the time I got to the coordinates, the fog was solid. No other boats on radar. I turned off the engine so we could listen... then, a blow of exhilation and with about 50 feet of visiblity, we could see the outline of Orcas surfacing. They surfaced all around the boat. It was magical.

On the ride back to Friday Harbor, going about 5 to 6 knots, I had to stop twice because whales popped up close enough to see. The guests weren't on a schedule and we all enjoyed the experience. Getting just north of Cattle Pass, the fog lifted and we ran that last bit of the trip with blue sky.

Pretty special trip.
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Da Nag



Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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City/Region: Port Angeles
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Vessel Name: Taco
Photos: <a>Da Boats</a>
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dotnmarty wrote:
"No, but I have a whistle".


Such a memorable day.

And, I've gotten so much mileage out of that response...it's provided over 10 years of ribbing at the expense of he who uttered it. Not gonna name him.

Meowwwwwww...

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dotnmarty



Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 4196
City/Region: Sammamish
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C-Dory Year: 1993
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Photos: Lizzie
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

me too, now shush ...
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Catman



Joined: 30 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, man, Marty was doing so well and my plan was to quietly hide from the fresh ridicule. For a while I was just so impressed with Marty's restraint. Almost PM'd him, too. But then, enter Da Nerd, and all discretion goes to hell. Goodness, that poor fellow you're talking about--forgot his name--learned his lesson almost 15 years ago.
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bridma



Joined: 13 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My C-Dory now has a new mum & dad, but once a Brat, always a Brat. When I had Nomad, I was a firm believer in keeping it simple (and saving money). I never had radar, auto-helm, or shore power. Now on my new boat I have all three and luv 'em. If you are on a budget, pick out one to install first that is more likely to save your life and the boat. It's a no-brainer.

Harvey, my boat is the only Troll I have come across with a custom installed high radar arch for mounting the radar.

Martin.
Gypsy Rose, Camano Troll 31.
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smckean (Tosca)



Joined: 18 Jan 2014
Posts: 974
City/Region: Guemes Island (Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tosca
Photos: Tosca
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really enjoyed starcrafttom's fog story. Tom's one of the good ones.....he learned from his experience and he's a better captain for it (there are other types of folks....like the types who learn little because they focus on blaming others or even the elements Wink ).

However, I'm not sure I buy his implied conclusion that one should have radar. I'm lucky, my first power boat is Tosca, and she came with radar (and every thing else Smile). So I've been spoiled. I've crossed Rosario in thick fog and felt completely safe and comfortable with all that gear creating my own little virtual visibility bubble.

OTOH, in my distant past, I was a 20 year sailor and racer on SF Bay, and on the ocean outside the Golden Gate. Didn't have all these goodies then..... not even a hand-held GPS since they didn't exist back then (or cell phones either for that matter). Navigation was all by charts, compass, and lines of position taken with a hand-held bearing compass. Normally, I took Tom's first advice.....we simply didn't go, but if it happened that the fog came in, I never felt in true risk. However, we always took Tom's second advice; that is, we always knew our position, and had a compass course laid out to our next relatively nearby destination (usually a buoy of some sort). If the fog arrived, we just got more careful about staying on course and compensating for current drift and such. We would have our course to our next destination plotted before we arrived at the buoy (it's very cool to see them pop out of the abyss). We also had ears (work better on a sailboat!).

So with chart plotter and GPS and some careful dead reckoning, I think I'd feel OK without radar going slow and listening hard. OTOH, I sure do love my radar..............hahahahahahaha!!!
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