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Deshi



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Making an offer? Reply with quote

Tomcat or 25 seem to be the right size and equipment for an old beginner. I have found a couple of used ones available (from dealers) but have no idea where to start with an offer. Is there an "acceptable" % off of the asking price to begin the negotiations? From reading this and other sites, I have determined that I need a survey done. I would appreciate your insights. Thank you, Deshi
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Deshi



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: One concern. Reply with quote

In looking at the 25 and the Tomcat, I am concerned about the entry and egress from the V birth. As an older couple, is getting in and out of the cubby going to be manageable? I promise that if I drive six hours to the coast to check these out I will try it, but I would appreciate your perspective. Thank you
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starcrafttom



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 7053
City/Region: marysville
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 27 Cruiser
Vessel Name: to be decided later
Photos: Susan E
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The price of anything is what the seller and buyer are willing to accept. All I can say is learn what things are worth and replacement cost. That way you can judge a boat correctly. A 10 year old tom cat with no electronics , radar or downriggers and a 1000 hour motor is not the same price as a 3year old boat with low hour motor and fully rigged with the latest and greatest equipment. Equipment - electronic, downriggers, safety gear, windless, anchors, dinghy etc etc are worth about half of new if more then a year old. Go back and read the old for sale post and see what the prices have been. Call and see if they got full price or not.

What type of boating are you going to do? Does boat A have the gear you need or is loaded down with gear you have no need for? Trailer? That can be a big cost if you have to go get one. Do you need one?

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 8628
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I would have to figure out what I could afford, and what boat I wanted, based on what uses I planned for the boat, and that would determine what loading would weigh, and that would determine what power I would need. Then, try and find something close and see what that looks like. Then you make adjustments in the prioritization, and then financing status. When it all fits you make the offer. It's up to you, then, to figure out if you want to make an offer and where it comes in, at asking, or below or, in some cases, an asking price offer may get beat out by a over asking price offer, especially for a well established, fully outfitted, well maintained, fully documented boat.

Good luck in your journey.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


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journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3065
City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as the entry or egress of the V-Berth, here goes.

The Tomcat has a big entry so that shouldn't be a problem.

As to the C-Dory 25, here's what one older person, me, did. I cut a larger entrance, about 10" wider. Solved the problem. Now, that bulkhead is a structural member and braces the middle of the boat, so I didn't feel comfortable in cutting any more width out. Left the height alone.

Any further advice is to try it before you buy it.

Boris
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1102
City/Region: Leesburg
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
I guess I would have to figure out what I could afford....


This is the key. If you can't afford it, it won't be any fun.

Also, you need to figure on the running, maintenance, and storage costs. If you need to buy/upgrade your tow vehicle and the costs that go with that.

The purchase cost boat can be a relatively small part of the whole picture.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 15241
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Thisaway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other major cost--not addressed is the tow vehicle. We don't know where you live or are going to use the boat--and that is important because of potential mountain grades. You want at least a 3/4 ton truck for the Tom Cat, where as some 1/2 tons will pull the 25. As Tom noted the trailer is expensive--can be over $8,000 for a good trailer with electric over hydraulic brakes--advised for any mountain grade work, and necessary in Canada.

I can get in and out of the 22 (as well as the 25) even though I am 81 and have significant back disease...The 25 is slightly easier to get in and out of than the 22. The Tom Cat 255 is far easier to get in and out--but if two sleeping forward, there is the "climb over factor" if the forward person has to get out during the night. My wife likes the 255 best also. The ride is better, and if you want a fast boat--the 255 cannot be beat.

Some C Brats have removed the entire bulkhead on the port side in the 22, and I believe also in the 25. When removing the port forward bulkhead, I would suggest, a support for the "shelf" behind the windshield. If the bulkhead is not tabbed in outboard it can be removed, with out structural compromise.

The reason we have a 22 is ease of trailering and using a 1/2 ton tow vehicle.

As to how much to offer: It depends on the situation. If the Tom Cat is in a "remote" area, and has been on the market for a longer time, plus older, then I
would offer lower than if the boat had just come on the market and was close to you. A lot depends on how much the seller needs to get rid of the boat. If they have bought another boat, or other life changing circumstances, the price they will take often is lower. There may be an exchange of offers until a compromise is reached.

Good surveyors are hard to find. Even harder to find one who "knows" C Dorys, and about cored hulls. The Tom Cat hulls are harder to access, but are foam, so no "rot" and because it is hard to put screws into them, less likely to have any issues.

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Thataway
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
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Deshi



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Info is appreciated Reply with quote

Tow vehicle isn't part of the $ equation. I will have to get something stronger. On a vehicle, I have learned to offer about 80% of the initial asking price. Didn't know where to start on a C-dory. Many of the participants here seem to have an emotional attachment and from reading are easily set back on their heels. Not the bet way to start a negoation. I feel a little better about the V birth now. I have done a lot of backpacking....I am past that. I hadn't thought about the navigation package. My ignorance will require a forgiving one. I appreciate y'all taking your time to answer my questions.
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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8023
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

journey on wrote:
As far as the entry or egress of the V-Berth, here goes.

The Tomcat has a big entry so that shouldn't be a problem.

As to the C-Dory 25, here's what one older person, me, did. I cut a larger entrance, about 10" wider. Solved the problem. Now, that bulkhead is a structural member and braces the middle of the boat, so I didn't feel comfortable in cutting any more width out. Left the height alone.

Any further advice is to try it before you buy it.

Boris


I don't have the same qualms as Boris, as I really don't think that bulkhead is structural. In fact, just look at how it is lag bolted at the bottom of the bulkhead to the top of the vee-berth - if it really were structural, it would have a more substantial connection. We cut a LOT more out for easy access to the vee-berth, and we did this years and years ago with no apparent ill effects. Scott Boysen, who was the production manager at the Ferndale C-Dory plant actually did the trim around our cutout for us, and liked the idea. You can see just how much we have removed from that bulkhead, which makes it a WHOLE lot easier to get in and out of the vee-berth. FWIW, David on Anna Leigh did the same modification.


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Alyssa Jean



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 2344
City/Region: Guemes Is., At the edge of the San Juan Islands, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: Alyssa Jean
Photos: Anna Leigh and Alyssa Jean
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deshi,
I think there are a series of pics of my removal of the bulkhead on my "old" 25. It is under Anna Leigh. Fairly easy to do.

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Alyssa Jean 16 Angler
Anna Leigh 22 Cruiser Sold 2005
Anna Leigh 25 Cruiser Sold 2014

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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
Posts: 1102
City/Region: Leesburg
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We like having the bulkhead intact. It maintains the separation of the berth from the main cabin.

My wife calls the berth "cozy".
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localboy



Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 3769
City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat Anderson wrote:

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I would lose my pillow... Laughing

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jbdba01



Joined: 18 Nov 2014
Posts: 139

State or Province: FL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW - when I was in the market I had 4 boat deals fall through - mainly because I felt that people were overpaying (aka. my offer was too low). It took me roughly 18 months to get the boat I wanted at the price I was comfortable with.

After a while you'll get a feel for the market and you'll have to adjust accordingly. I had a spreadsheet tracking days on market, condition, engines, hours...just made things easier.

There's no % to work with...that said if you low ball a guy just be prepared of a cold shoulder and possibly some grief at signing day. I also informed a broker that if he wanted to sell it it would have to come out of his commission because I wasn't coming up any more. I believe on that deal we were $2-3K apart. You just need to be prepared to walk away from any deal.

If memory serves right on a $65K boat I offered $55K, settled at $58K and was out bid at $60K. On a $50K boat I offered 43K and was outbid at $47K.
On another the brokers laughed at me when I offered $32K on a $45K boat (no trailer diff brand). That boat sat on the market for 8 months and ended up selling for $34K. On another boat they wanted $35K and it was pretty junky - I offered $28K with the condition that the engines be professionally reviewed (they were over heating) another guy came in at $34K. I walked away and felt really lucky to have walked away.

Be aware that some brokers will shop your offer - "We just had another bid come in yesterday after you bid." I was very reluctant to put a deposit down out of state. I just walked away...

In general I felt like better deals were to be found in winter, but there was also less inventory to choose from. If you find a "deal" move fast on it but get it surveyed - when I traveled to the boat more than 100 miles I always called the night before and reminded them I was traveling quite a distance to look at the boat. You don't want to get there and hear "Oh...we just accepted an offer yesterday." It happens.

Supply and demand is a beautiful thing.

re
===
Tomcat or 25 seem to be the right size and equipment for an old beginner.
===

Tomcat is a lot of boat for an "old beginner". Be sure to sea trial both at open water, and docking. Docking being the more important of the two. Open water is a piece of cake compared to the fun of docking in strong tides with a good cross wind.

If you're going to trailer her, you want to experience that as well. Both launching and recovering. If you're going to solo handle take some good notes. When she starts to slide off, how deep does she have to be to recover without powering on (if possible)....

Docking and trailing will be you're challenges.

Lastly know that boats need attention...used boats a bunch more than new ones.

Below is my to do list on a gently used boat. That list has since expanded to 56 items.

All of this is doable for a beginner, but go into it eyes wide open both from a mariner perspective, a budget perspective, and work perspective.

To me it's the journey - not the destination.

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Deshi



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Re Tomcat Reply with quote

Please expand on why the Tomcat is more demanding for a beginner. The check list/work list helps give a clearer idea of what is necessary. We know what to check on our cars, but the detailed differences had not occured to me. I will definitely have a survey done. My plan is to spend as long as necessary on a large lake and then take it to a slow river. It would seem to me that the ICW might not be the best place to make rookie mistakes. I have done a limited amount of time on the ICW in a ski boat when the world was young. My feeling is that I need to forget what I didn't know and start over in a more Forgiving environment. Whereever I buy I will do my best to make some familiarization time part of the deal. If the seller doesn't have time maybe I can find a C-dory captain in the area. Thanks to everyone for for sharing their knowledge and making me consider things I haven't.
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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 6915
City/Region: Tropical Tip of Texas
State or Province: TX
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd suggest a Safe Boating Class from the Coast Guard Aux or US Power Squadron to start this journey - you'll learn a lot, including what to look for in a boat.

From my perspective, there is no "percentage" with used boats, especially C-Dorys. Owners here generally have a good idea what their boats are worth. There will be the occasional overpriced (for the market) boat that takes a long time to sell, and the occasional underpriced boat that sells immediately. Because the age and condition of engine and electronics weighs heavily on the value, there is no standard.

Make an offer that is "too low," and you may have the seller not take you seriously. These boats are not like Bayliners and many others where you can figure straight line depreciation. The hulls lose very little value over their life if the boat has not been damaged and has been properly cared for. You absolutely cannot go by NADA or Kelly Blue Book for the "value" of a C-Dory.

Good luck with this journey. Don't think of any C-Dory purchase as "a percentage off," but rather the value you will receive. Priced right, many C-Dorys will sell for their full asking price. It would be a darn shame to miss out on a great boat because of a perceived percentage off.
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