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smckean (Tosca)
Joined: 18 Jan 2014
Posts: 975
City/Region: Guemes Island (Anacortes)
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tosca
Photos: Tosca
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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bmacpiper,
| Quote: | | All lugs and cables are clean and installed with dielectric grease. |
Was the grease put on before the connections were established, or after? |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hard to believe that the wire would be the problem. It is possible that it is the switch? Agree with Dave, that without some fairly sophisticated test gear that a heavy cable will show up enough difference in resistance to determine that it is the culprit.
Cable--perhaps if for some reason there is a complete break in it.
Too bad you don't have an album (don't know how you got by this long without one!)--then we could see the photos...
The mystery of the first week of July 2017!
_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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bmacpiper
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 211
City/Region: Bainbridge Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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An update with very good news.
I went to my local chandlery and got supplies to replace:
--All 4 battery cables for the starter batteries (sized these up from 6ga to 4ga on his recommendation)
--Both battery cables for the house battery (kept to 6ga for those)
--Positive cables from house switch to 50A breaker, and breaker to cabin distribution block (sized up again, from 10ga to 8ga)
--Negative cable from aft ground block to cabin distribution block (8ga instead of 10ga also)
I cleaned all connections until they were shiny copper, used plenty of dielectric grease, and reconnected everything with it all just laying in the middle of the boat for now.
Surprise, surprise--the motors start so fast I can't even tell how fast they're turning over, and all house electronics work with house power only, i.e. starter batteries switched off and motors not running.
As a further test, I then disconnected the new ground from aft block to cabin block, and reconnected the original one; everything still worked fine on house power only. So I'm sure I could probably save myself some further torture and pain by just using existing wiring from the breaker forward, but I've come this far...
My hands and back are so damn sore I can barely move them, but so it goes.
Now I just need to route the cables over to the house battery, and thread the new cables up to the cabin, replace about 762 zip ties, and I'll be set for this round. The starboard cockpit pocket has to stay in place--I once made the mistake of removing that (with twin outboards and hydraulic steering--it literally took me daily attempts for three weeks to get it back into place since I couldn't get everything flattened out and curved just so), but once I thread past that with a coat hanger, it's smooth sailing through the galley and helm, since they're exposed.
As an aside, I split the old ground cable from the house battery and removed insulation for about 3 inches to have a look. As you might guess, the "copper" was all pure black, even between the centermost strands.
So, whoever said "it's usually ground" is correct once again, plus a ton of corrosion in the wires. The greybeards (as usual) carry the day! Us salt-and-pepper beards are close to your wisdom, but not quite there yet...
Now then, anyone have a good cure for all the black mildew on the fuel tanks and in the electronics compartment??? 
I am very grateful for all of you being willing to help, in spite of the stupidity exhibited by some of us (cough, cough).
Best to all,
Ben, apprentice to the apprentice to the apprentice electrician
_________________
bmc
"Do it today, you may not pass this way again!"
2005 16 Cruiser, "Natural Blue", sold 2009
2004 19 Angler, "Crush", sold 2012
2007 22 Cruiser, "Big Blue", purchased 2012 |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Glad to see you got the issues solved! Be sure and adhesive heat shrink every swaged joint. (Which means every joint--especially with your history of corrosion).
That much corrosion suggests one of two items--either the wire was not tinned properly in the first place (Always use marine grade tinned wire), or the wire was submerged in salt water at some time (could have wicked the salt water up the wire). Some folks use welding cable for the heavy wire in boat--it's cheaper. I have seen that fail due to corrosion.
Whenever I run a wire, I put a 1/8" piece of nylon or dacron cord along that "run" then it is easy to pull the next wire you put in that "run"--when pulling a wire with that cord, have another cord in place, and then re-use the first "string" or cord. |
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starcrafttom
Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 7881
City/Region: marysville
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 27 Cruiser
Vessel Name: to be decided later
Photos: Susan E
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Glad you have it figured out. I just want to point out something to every one. You did a load test with the battery hooked up to the boat and using just a volt meter to see if the load dropped when you closed that circuit. voltage dropped to 0 but when you tested just the battery it was ok. This is why a $20 dollar tester is such a great tool. if you had tested as you did and then took off the cables and tested again with just the load tester you would have know right then that is was a connection, wire or ground. Dont get fooled with doing a load test with just a meter. Stating this for everyone reading .
_________________
Thomas J Elliott
http://tomsfishinggear.blogspot.com/ |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Tom is correct, one of the problems was that the "load test" voltage was tested at the windlass--not at the battery, when using the windlass as a load. If the voltage had been tested at the battery, it would have shown no drop in voltage. (and the windlass would not have engaged). The high resistance (not enough conductivity) was from the wiring from the battery to the ground (as I read the results)
That $20 battery load tester either from Amazon or Harbor freight would have saved a lot of trips to Wallyworld, and a sore back!
Incidentally CCA (cold cranking amps) does not relate directly to Amp hours. The Amp hours is what we want to follow in our house batteries. |
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AstoriaDave
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 994
City/Region: Astoria
State or Province: OR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Ben,
Your saga is a lesson for all of us. I hope I remember yours when I have a similar issue.
_________________
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR |
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bmacpiper
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 211
City/Region: Bainbridge Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| smckean (Tosca) wrote: | bmacpiper,
| Quote: | | All lugs and cables are clean and installed with dielectric grease. |
Was the grease put on before the connections were established, or after? |
Both! |
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bmacpiper
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 211
City/Region: Bainbridge Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: | Tom is correct, one of the problems was that the "load test" voltage was tested at the windlass--not at the battery, when using the windlass as a load. If the voltage had been tested at the battery, it would have shown no drop in voltage. (and the windlass would not have engaged). The high resistance (not enough conductivity) was from the wiring from the battery to the ground (as I read the results)
That $20 battery load tester either from Amazon or Harbor freight would have saved a lot of trips to Wallyworld, and a sore back!
Incidentally CCA (cold cranking amps) does not relate directly to Amp hours. The Amp hours is what we want to follow in our house batteries. |
I did order the load tester as recommended, and received it yesterday about four hours after Wally World. It is shocking how heavy a group 31 is, especially when trying to thread it into a battery compartment and not break your fingers! Glad to have this tool for next time. |
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bmacpiper
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 211
City/Region: Bainbridge Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| starcrafttom wrote: | | Glad you have it figured out. I just want to point out something to every one. You did a load test with the battery hooked up to the boat and using just a volt meter to see if the load dropped when you closed that circuit. voltage dropped to 0 but when you tested just the battery it was ok. This is why a $20 dollar tester is such a great tool. if you had tested as you did and then took off the cables and tested again with just the load tester you would have know right then that is was a connection, wire or ground. Dont get fooled with doing a load test with just a meter. Stating this for everyone reading . |
Thanks Tom! Sage advice, still learning...
bmc |
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bmacpiper
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 211
City/Region: Bainbridge Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: | Glad to see you got the issues solved! Be sure and adhesive heat shrink every swaged joint. (Which means every joint--especially with your history of corrosion).
That much corrosion suggests one of two items--either the wire was not tinned properly in the first place (Always use marine grade tinned wire), or the wire was submerged in salt water at some time (could have wicked the salt water up the wire). Some folks use welding cable for the heavy wire in boat--it's cheaper. I have seen that fail due to corrosion.
Whenever I run a wire, I put a 1/8" piece of nylon or dacron cord along that "run" then it is easy to pull the next wire you put in that "run"--when pulling a wire with that cord, have another cord in place, and then re-use the first "string" or cord. |
I like the dacron idea, and will use that. Unfortunately the old wires are well ziptied into a large bundle, and won't easily come out, or I'd use them to pull the new ones.
I did in fact use adhesive shrink tubing on all cables, about 2" each, and marine wire. In my case, what happened was the boot where control cables pass through the transom to the motors had failed, and I became aware (much too late) how much spray was getting into the starboard battery compartment (which is where all of my electrical connections live also). I do believe the wicking/capillary action is what happened, in spite of the old cables being pretty well sealed.
For now, I'm using a sponge in a plastic bag to seal the control hole against water intrusion, and I'm looking to make a long boot from PVC cloth or similar, such that this won't be able to happen again. The old rubber boots are such junk, and never seem to last more than a couple of years. I've also not ever found one that has a split side (like a replacement CV boot) such that it can be installed without removing control cables. Open to suggestions here, as always!
Thanks,
bmc |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20803
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| bmacpiper wrote: |
I like the dacron idea, and will use that. Unfortunately the old wires are well ziptied into a large bundle, and won't easily come out, or I'd use them to pull the new ones.
In my case, what happened was the boot where control cables pass through the transom to the motors had failed, and I became aware (much too late) how much spray was getting into the starboard battery compartment (which is where all of my electrical connections live also). I do believe the wicking/capillary action is what happened, in spite of the old cables being pretty well sealed.
I've also not ever found one that has a split side (like a replacement CV boot) such that it can be installed without removing control cables. Open to suggestions here, as always!
Thanks,
bmc |
Here is split boot and ring from Attwood. sometimes this is a place to use a silicone or LifeSeal/Life caulk to completely seal the top and middle of the boot after pulled tight with a Zip Tie, and to seal the edge of the split (which is kept facing down).
Sometimes liquid tape is necessary for complete seal. Generally the "Adhesive" shrink wrap is the key--this prevents wicking and corrosion.
I often run the first line for a pull with an electrician's fishing tape. I use more zip ties to hold the new cables in place. Don't know how many cables are being abandoned, but if a significant number, you may want to pull them out, and then replace the zip ties.
Sounds like all is under control. |
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bmacpiper
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 211
City/Region: Bainbridge Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: |
Here is split boot and ring from Attwood. sometimes this is a place to use a silicone or LifeSeal/Life caulk to completely seal the top and middle of the boot after pulled tight with a Zip Tie, and to seal the edge of the split (which is kept facing down).
Sometimes liquid tape is necessary for complete seal. Generally the "Adhesive" shrink wrap is the key--this prevents wicking and corrosion.
I often run the first line for a pull with an electrician's fishing tape. I use more zip ties to hold the new cables in place. Don't know how many cables are being abandoned, but if a significant number, you may want to pull them out, and then replace the zip ties.
Sounds like all is under control. |
Thanks again Bob. I will get one of those on order, and see how it goes.
I went to run the new red/black wires up to the cabin yesterday and found an interesting configuration (conflagration?) with the old one. There is a small bundle that includes positive and I think negative (all covered in braid so hard to tell), and that bundle goes down to just above the starboard fuel tank, and is bent 180 back on itself and taped on the bend. At the actual bend, a smaller bundle emerges and goes to the bilge pump. I'm guessing, here, but since bilge pumps usually come with short wires in my experience, I'm thinking maybe the original rigger ran the wires to the dash switch for the bilge pump, and tapped into the main positive wire so the pump can run when all batteries are off. There are two small ground wires on the rear block that I haven't traced yet, one of those could be bilge or it may be tapped into the main ground going forward also. This all wouldn't have been my first choice.
So I held off on running the new wires, for fear that when I disconnected the old positive and/or ground leads, I'd lose my bilge pump. Went out and caught a few crab (including a monster dungeness, just under 8") and will ruminate on this and consider how much I don't want to disassemble the bundle of wires I mentioned! I may have to bite the bullet and remove the starboard pocket, and have at it.
Also found my hydraulic steering to be "bumpy", i.e. like air bubbles, but that's another thread. Probably just needs to be topped up and bled, another skill to learn on this boat!
Best,
bmc |
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Wandering Sagebrush
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 2770
City/Region: Northeast Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a link that might help with getting the steering back on track... Check the post by Boris, it's about 6 down...
http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t=23370
_________________
"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." - Abraham Lincoln |
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bmacpiper
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 211
City/Region: Bainbridge Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, just found it!
bmc |
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