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No house electronics--weird problem
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bmacpiper



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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City/Region: Bainbridge Island
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: No house electronics--weird problem Reply with quote

Hi all,
I've been chasing some electrical issues down, after my recent toasting of my starter batteries. I have a strange issue, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me so far.

I'm in a 2007 22' cruiser, that was rigged by Les at EQ Marine, i.e. a really nice rigging job. It runs 2 starter batteries, and a separate giant house battery (2100). All are odysseys and I have a xantrex 20 triple charger.

What I've discovered is that when the battery switches are on, I have no house electronics. From the House switch, there is a large breaker/fuse inline to the front of the boat, which I replaced last year when house electronics were dead. It has 13.2V on the far side from the battery, i.e. it's good. There is another large wire (2 ga?) that goes to another breaker up front, and then goes on to the windlass controls, i.e. the windlass is direct connected to the house switch with its own circuit and breaker. I have 13.2 at the windlass breaker, and 13.2 at the windlass switch, but the windlass doesn't work.

If I try to turn on the chart plotter, VHF radio, etc. I can hear the tiniest click, i.e. they're trying to turn on, but can't.

The really strange part is this--if I start the motors and run them for a few minutes, all house electronics will work normally.

The two starting batteries have VSRs on them, but I had always thought these didn't affect the house battery. But given my last paragraph, it sure seems like the VSRs may be blocking voltage from the house battery to house electronics, which makes no sense to me. And, given the presence of voltage at the windlass control switch, I'm at a total loss as to why it won't work unless the motors are running. This does shed light on why my pot puller and down riggers ran slow last year--I think they must have been running off the starter batteries and also explains why the house never seemed to lose any voltage! I thought I had the strongest house battery in history!!! Smile

I realize I have a lot of wire tracing in my near future, but thought I'd throw this out there in case it's one of those basic problems where I'm overlooking something really obvious, and someone might say, "If you just attach the framas to the connectakazoink, the rotary girder will eliminate side fumbling and fix the marzelvane." Smile (A buried VSR I don't know about? Etc.?)

OK, I'll keep you posted as this progresses. Thanks for any ideas!
Ben

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bmc
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2005 16 Cruiser, "Natural Blue", sold 2009
2004 19 Angler, "Crush", sold 2012
2007 22 Cruiser, "Big Blue", purchased 2012
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AstoriaDave



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first thing to check is your battery terminals. Make sure they make good contact with the major cables which supply power to your vvarious circuits. You will have to disassemble each one, clean the terminals and the lugs, and reattach. The voltmeter readings you report represent continuity, but the voltmeter requires so little CURRENT to show a reading, everything looks fine. But when a heavy current draw item such as your winch, etc., is energized, the high resistance at the battery terminal restricts the current flow so much that the winch (or whatever) cannot function.

BEFORE you clean the battery terminals, do this test: Have an assistant monitor the voltage across the winch circuit before it is switched on, and watch what happens when turned on. You likely will see the voltage drop to a very low value. Do this first to verify that under load, the winch circuit is not operating correctly.

If the winch circuit voltage remaibs high, but the winch does not crank, then the problem is likely at the lugs on the winch instead.
.

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starcrafttom



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Dave. Do a load test. load tester

Buy on of these load testers so you can do it with out the battery hooked up or another person. Good cheap useful and under used tool

You have also told us a lot about the power side but I find most problems are on the negative side. Are the connections all clean and tight?

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starcrafttom



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh , (because I can hear my father yelling at me in my head) did you check the fluid level in the batteries ? Got to start with the basics.
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bmacpiper



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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City/Region: Bainbridge Island
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C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Dave and Thomas!

A few responses.
--Batteries are AGM so no fluid level to check. Starter batts are brand new; house is charging and holding charge just fine.
--All lugs and cables are clean and installed with dielectric grease. I don't think this is the issue, but I do question the cables on the starter batts since they may have taken some salt water and may have corrosion inside the insulation. Even with a full charge, one batt will crank slowly, the other won't crank unless I use the emergency parallel switch to up current to the other starter motor. This makes me think I have a lot of resistance in the cables since the batteries are fine and connections are fine.

--Grounds are mostly on a common block, and I've cleaned them each year and used dielectric also; but, I'll do it again to be sure.

--The windlass lugs are protected and spotless; I'll try the load test at the switch and see what happens.

--I've found a number of "interesting" things so far in my tracing. Not the least of which is that the ground wire for the port fuel filler was disconnected (nut vibrated off I think). And the 30A fuse for port downrigger was melted but still working, probably due to corrosion--it's not a marine type and was able to ingest salt/humidity on the blades. Good to be having a thorough look through all of this stuff!

--As to why things work when the motors are running--I started thinking about the fact that the three batteries all share a common ground, i.e. all three are attached to the ground block mentioned above. Would this make it possible for the starter batteries and/or motor alternators to backfeed the house electronics, in case of emergency? I.e. could this be a designed feature instead of a defect? Both starter switches/batteries have VSRs on them, and I did notice the past couple of years that they opened more than I thought they should have--but it never clicked with me that something was wrong. Now I'm thinking that they were opening because the starter batts were powering down riggers, chart plotter, etc. and so they got worked pretty hard and the VSRs were called on often to protect them.

--If this last thought is in fact true, I'm still at a loss as to why the house battery, which is definitely fully charged, isn't powering even the most low-draw items (like VHF radio, cabin lights, etc.). I hear your point about the windlass and resistance, but it won't even light a teeny cabin light. It seems to me that there simply has to be a broken or loose wire somewhere; fuses/breakers are intact so far. I think I need one of those long-distance continuity testers, since my multimeter leads are only a few feet long. Maybe there's one that also has the load tester built in.

OK, back to tracing and testing and labeling. Thanks again, and keep the ideas coming!!!

best
bmc
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Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmacpiper wrote:


Excerpts:

This makes me think I have a lot of resistance in the cables since the batteries are fine and connections are fine.

I think I need one of those long-distance continuity testers, since my multimeter leads are only a few feet long. Maybe there's one that also has the load tester built in.


best
bmc


Ben-

Maybe you can use a set of jumper cables to extend the short range of your multi-meter leads to test the continuity / resistance of the cables (with the batteries switched off as necessary to protect against short circuits as needed).

Hook them up and then after testing the continuity and resistance at a static mode, wiggle the cables and see if the continuity / resistance varies, indicated big time corrosion down inside an insulated cable due to salt intrusion and corrosion.

Good Luck and stay connected! Laughing

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up

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bmacpiper



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Joe! A good interim solution!

OK, back to bleeding on sharp fiberglass and exposed screws...

bmc
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep a 12 piece of #12 wire with alligator clips on both ends to use in testing to rule out one wire(such as ground) in testing.

I think you may be onto something with the VSR. The VSR should be giving you current as soon as the starting batteries get to about 13 volts--and this this can be fairly quickly--in a second or so.

Have you been testing the voltage at the console? This is where it counts--and I suspect that some switch is either off, or mis-wired so so you are not getting current until the VSR kicks on. The VSR is then connection the start and house batteries--as well as the electronics etc. The place to be looking is back near the batteries--especially around the breaker/fuse. It is possible that there is a bad breaker--and that someway it is being bypassed by the vSR--

Windlass--testing voltage at the lugs of the motor, or the relay? There should not be any power to the windlass until the relay kicks in. Possible that there is an interruption near the relay or switch?

Definitely load test all of the batteries before you go any further (bleed any more).

It is so much easier if one is there, since often there is a small place which is constantly overlooked, and then becomes obvious when pointed out. Most of the C Dory problems I find are from ground terminals, and or corroded connections--but you seem to have ruled those out.

I suspect that the 2100 battery is a group 31 (listed as a 2150 on current battery site). That is a good house battery.

A couple of photos of the VSR/fuse area--might give us some clues. Good thing about electrical problems--they are always solvable!

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bmacpiper



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
I keep a 12 piece of #12 wire with alligator clips on both ends to use in testing to rule out one wire(such as ground) in testing.


(Slaps self in forehead)

thataway wrote:
I think you may be onto something with the VSR. The VSR should be giving you current as soon as the starting batteries get to about 13 volts--and this this can be fairly quickly--in a second or so.


I lifted the entire battery switch assembly for the first time ever, and it was enlightening. And yes, it is set up so that the motors can run house if the VSRs are closed. Photos and description to follow below.

thataway wrote:
Have you been testing the voltage at the console? This is where it counts--and I suspect that some switch is either off, or mis-wired so so you are not getting current until the VSR kicks on. The VSR is then connection the start and house batteries--as well as the electronics etc. The place to be looking is back near the batteries--especially around the breaker/fuse. It is possible that there is a bad breaker--and that someway it is being bypassed by the vSR--


I've tested several things in the cabin, and lots in the battery/motor area. I did just replace the main 50A breaker at the battery switches, which delivers power via a thick red wire to the main positive block up front (i.e. the one from C-Dory that is next to all the factory switches for lights, etc.) so I think that one is still good.

thataway wrote:
Windlass--testing voltage at the lugs of the motor, or the relay? There should not be any power to the windlass until the relay kicks in. Possible that there is an interruption near the relay or switch?


On this boat the windlass is direct-wired to the house switch positive side.

thataway wrote:
Definitely load test all of the batteries before you go any further (bleed any more).


I don't have a load tester just yet, but will do this when I get one. The starter batteries are a week old, so doubtful they're bad. The house is 4 years old, and holds 12.75 or so after getting to full charge. Can it be bad and yet still hold voltage? Maybe I'll take it with me to the auto parts store and have them load test.

thataway wrote:
It is so much easier if one is there, since often there is a small place which is constantly overlooked, and then becomes obvious when pointed out. Most of the C Dory problems I find are from ground terminals, and or corroded connections--but you seem to have ruled those out.


Truer words have not been spoken, and I will clean all the grounds again just to be sure. They are certainly the problem in most everything electrical I've ever worked on, from old BMW motos to espresso machines!

thataway wrote:
I suspect that the 2100 battery is a group 31 (listed as a 2150 on current battery site). That is a good house battery.


You're correct--I incorrectly said 2100. It's the group 31 Odyssey.

thataway wrote:
A couple of photos of the VSR/fuse area--might give us some clues. Good thing about electrical problems--they are always solvable!


Will try to do this below, with descriptions.

First photo is just an overview of the switch configuration (top of photo is aft):
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPVyh8FPXS3rWEJj7aqczTmSueyw2FtcdHJ9bHt

Second photo is the switches flipped upside down, from front to back:
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMVDNtiM4gVyk9Yt-Q_9tnrww8UbUhCWC5s_Mzq

Terminals A,B and C,D are the two starting batteries. E,F are the house battery, and of course the green bottoms are the VSRs. In between B&C is the emergency parallel. Positive leads are B, C & F. Motor sides are A&D.

On F: The top large red wire goes to the windlass breaker and controls up in the cabin. Bottom large red is main cable from the house battery. The yellow one goes to a downrigger. Brown goes to bilge pump.

On E: the large red goes to the main house breaker, then to the cabin positive block. Yellow goes to the control box for the simrad autopilot.

And if I'm seeing it correctly, the VSRs are tied to the cabin side of the house switch, which would in fact let the motors run the house electronics as mentioned. In that case--wouldn't this indicate that the problem lies between the house battery and the house switch??? In other words, if corrosion between the house switch and the windlass was the problem, it would seem to me that the motors and/or smaller starting batteries would not be able to overcome that same corrosion and make everything work normally.

Man, I'm really starting to suspect my house battery...so I'll wait to hear from you guys on whether a battery can be dead yet hold voltage, i.e. poor load test with good voltage. That would certainly save some pain. In the meantime, everything is getting cleaned and greased and that's always a good thing. I did notice some shiny wire peeking out in the house main cable when I flipped the switches over--which makes me think the cable may not be corroded.

OK, I'll stop for now.
Thanks.
bmc


Last edited by bmacpiper on Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bmacpiper



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 211
City/Region: Bainbridge Island
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C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Big Blue
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure why my photo links are not displaying photos in the message above, sorry... Photobucket no longer allows linking, so trying google photos.
bmc
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bmacpiper



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing, per Dave's comment about load testing. When I put voltmeter across the terminals at the windlass switch, I get 12.7. When I switch the windlass on, volts go immediately to 0. Same across trim tab switches.

Does this suffice as a rudimentary load test, to show that my house battery is toast? (Recalling that everything works fine when motors are running and feeding house circuits).

Thanks,
bmc

AstoriaDave wrote:
The first thing to check is your battery terminals. Make sure they make good contact with the major cables which supply power to your vvarious circuits. You will have to disassemble each one, clean the terminals and the lugs, and reattach. The voltmeter readings you report represent continuity, but the voltmeter requires so little CURRENT to show a reading, everything looks fine. But when a heavy current draw item such as your winch, etc., is energized, the high resistance at the battery terminal restricts the current flow so much that the winch (or whatever) cannot function.

BEFORE you clean the battery terminals, do this test: Have an assistant monitor the voltage across the winch circuit before it is switched on, and watch what happens when turned on. You likely will see the voltage drop to a very low value. Do this first to verify that under load, the winch circuit is not operating correctly.

If the winch circuit voltage remaibs high, but the winch does not crank, then the problem is likely at the lugs on the winch instead.
.
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thataway



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too late for me to try and find the photos, (get error) but Yes, a bad battery can still show 12.75 volts at rest, and immediately go down under load. This is especially true if the charger had just been on it, and there is a surface charge on the plates.

Yes, if the windlass is directly wired to the batteries (and the breaker/switch are good) it does act as a load test. This is true especially if you clamp the leads of the voltmeter to the battery posts, and hit the windlass switch--if it falls to zero--bad battery...(or a direct short, which should blow the breaker).

Quote:
VSRs are tied to the cabin side of the house switch, which would in fact let the motors run the house electronics as mentioned.
This also would suggest a bad house battery.. (in 2016 you said this battery was about 4 years old, so this would make it closer to 5 years old --you brought up the old thread Very Happy )

I wire the VSR directly between the start battery and house battery. Not after a switch (which I think you have?). There also can be failure of the switches. I have had a fair number fail thru the years...(cheap marine junk!$$!)
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bmacpiper



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Too late for me to try and find the photos, (get error) but Yes, a bad battery can still show 12.75 volts at rest, and immediately go down under load. This is especially true if the charger had just been on it, and there is a surface charge on the plates.

Yes, if the windlass is directly wired to the batteries (and the breaker/switch are good) it does act as a load test. This is true especially if you clamp the leads of the voltmeter to the battery posts, and hit the windlass switch--if it falls to zero--bad battery...(or a direct short, which should blow the breaker).

Quote:
VSRs are tied to the cabin side of the house switch, which would in fact let the motors run the house electronics as mentioned.
This also would suggest a bad house battery.. (in 2016 you said this battery was about 4 years old, so this would make it closer to 5 years old --you brought up the old thread Very Happy )

I wire the VSR directly between the start battery and house battery. Not after a switch (which I think you have?). There also can be failure of the switches. I have had a fair number fail thru the years...(cheap marine junk!$$!)


All good points and fit my situation well. No breaker tripping when doing the windlass test; I'll repeat anyway with meter at the battery.

You're right re: age of battery--I was trying to remember when I bought the boat and replaced the batteries, and it was in fact 2012 not 2013.

And yes, I think I have switches between house and starter batts and VSRs, so switch(es) are involved.

Now I just need to solve the fact that one starter/motor turns over slowly, and the other needs emergency parallel to turn over at all--could be failing starter motors, or same possible corrosion in starter battery cables. Nothing like chasing multiple issues at once! I did rebuild/clean starter motors once already (and found one had a brush not even connected by the factory, oops!), so if I have to replace, 10 years probably wasn't a bad run, especially with salt.

Thanks again,
bmc
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bmacpiper



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning. Just back from Wally World, and it's a good news/bad news sort of thing.

The house battery load tested just fine, giving 1079 CCA of the rated 1150, and at 13.02 V. So "yay, I don't need to buy a new battery!", and "damn, I still don't know what's wrong!"

It occurred to me overnight that the port downrigger/crab pot puller is working just fine, and is directly wired to the house battery terminals. The starboard downrigger is not working fine, it won't spin, and it's wired directly to the hot side of the house battery switch. In my mind, that seems to narrow it down to the two battery cables that run from the house battery to the house switch and to the ground block, would you agree?

Similarly, with good voltage up front at the windlass breaker and controls, but no function, it seems that this would be narrowed down to the hot wires from the house battery to the windlass breaker, and from the windlass breaker to the windlass controls, and the ground cable (again) from the house battery to the ground block.

So guess what's in common there? The ground, of course... So I'll start there.

Being a bit out of my league here, a basic question. If I disconnect both ends of the ground cable from the house batt and ground block, is it possible to test that cable for corrosion, i.e. by measuring ohms resistance or similar?

OK, talk soon.

Ben
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AstoriaDave



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Ben, this has turned out to be a difficult chase.

I don't know if an ohmeter test will do the job. It might be worthwhile to steal thataway's trick of a length of heavy gauge wire as a bypass.

Bob's trick is guaranteed to eliminate cable/connector corrosion without a doubt.
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