Bottom Paint

[cbadmin]

From: MichaelOnTheClaraMae (Original Message) Sent: 10/1/2003 2:34 PM
Well I've gone and done it! We just bought a new place here in Charleston. It's great... on the water with has a dock and a 5,000# boat lift. Only problem is the Clara Mae weighs about 6,000# plus . Truth is we knew this going in and knew we had two choices. In fact, we are real close to a fairly nice marina. So, we can upgrade upgrade the lift, or, we can paint the bottom and put her in the water. Which ever we decide, I thought this was a perfect time to talk about bottom paint - both materials and methods. So here goes:

- There is plenty of good general info on types of paint, etc. out there. Any comments on bottom paints and what has worked best for you in-the-water C-Dory people?
- What about bottom prep? I am sure the paint manufacturer will have some specific recommendations but I am interested if anyone here has done this over the gel coat for the first time.
- And finally, what about positioning the boat to get the job done? I know a boat yard could hoist her and set her up on chocks but has anyone taken this task on themselves? If so, how did you do it?

Thanks for the help,
Michael

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/1/2003 7:52 PM
Michael, if you are up to it, just have a looksee on this photo album I did last year on the subject. Let us know what's up ... OK
Greg

From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 10/1/2003 8:31 PM
Michael- The discussion of bottom paints is very long, tedious, and readily available at places like the West Advisor in the West Marine Catalogue. I won't try to repeat all that here, but the best choice of paint type is usually more of a decision based on what type of water the boat is kept in and what pragmatically works locally. Salt water vs. fresh, water temperature, the local pest organisms, and use factors all play a part. Talk to several yards locally and see if you can get consistent agreement on what are considered to be the best options.

The gel coat wax is sanded off for adhesion and a barrier coat is applied to eliminate possible problems with blisters. This problem is worse in boats moored in salt water. We haven't heard of any (to my klnowledge) problems with blisters with C-Dorys. Some outfits want to apply a single barrier coat, others as many as three. In the S.F. Bay/Delta Areas, I got quotes for an initial barrier coat and bottom paint job on a CD 22 from $1100-$2000. Subsequent painting every 12-18 months runs about $300-$400, for the anti-fouling paint job only.

Getting the boat up to paint can be a real job. Some peope have done it on the trailer by raising it one end at a time, but the sanding required for the barier coat (3-inch belt sander) would make a difficult process with the trailer in the way. Unless you have considerable equipment in terms of jacks and blocks, I wouldn't think it would be work the cost difference compared to having it set up for you at a yard.

Why not just reinforce the existing lift and increase the purchase system on the support belts or truss? What would the cost be compared to bottom painting over the next 10 years plus paying moorage fees? Sounds better to me in the long run.

Bottom paint is rough, and unless you wet sand it smooth after it dries, and the roughness will cost you 2-4 mph and gas mileage to boot.

Having the boat at home makes it immensely easier to work on compared to at a marina.

Also. having the boat at your new home will be more fun than down the road at a marina. The only advantages I can think of at the marina is meeting new people and having it away from the house as an escape destination (!).

HTH Joe


From: Chuck S Sent: 10/2/2003 4:35 AM
Mike --

If you can afford a waterfront home and a big C-Dory you can afford to boost the lift capacity to over 6000 pounds! Leaving a boat moored in salt water is asking for zillions of problems only some of which can be addressed by good bottom paint. Even moored in brackish water (Neuse River at New Bern NC) we had critters and hull blisters requiring much annual maintenance and expense.

-- Chuck

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/2/2003 4:46 AM
A "barrier coat" wow that one got by me! that's what I thought the 200 dolar a gallon, bottom paint, was all about! I went with some stuff that is recommended for a trailer boat. It is supposed to survive the out of the water time well enough to. I think the primary reason I went bottom paint was, so I would not have to re gel coat.. (more weight and cost$), the hull after all the hull repair and reinforcement. The more I read about gel coat, and how it is effected by just 9 days in salt water, I finally gave in and bottom painted, even though I don't leave her in the water. And I agree, it's much better to have them at home, than not. I'm always doing upgrades and keep Redƒox meticulously clean, I can't stand a dirty boat.

Hey I had to knock mine down (bottom painted surface) with a sander to, I did not need to wet sand at all thankfully! that orbital sander was a godsend! that's what most bottom painters use up here in the 'greatland'. There is a shortage of peep that want to do that kind of work, I can see why! Our paved driveway sure made it a lot easier. I was able to roll around in the creeper that way.

Good subject! greg

From: C-ATTL-Angler85 Sent: 10/2/2003 11:09 PM
I just bought an 85 22ft Angler and the bottom paint is somewhat caked on, from the years of re-painting and apparently not sanding smooth 1st. In several spots, it has just fallen out, kinda like little pot holes. I would just as soon it all fall off. I don't mind the bottom paint, but would like the nice smooth bottom. Not sure it I would really notice the difference. I assum since the boat is on a trailer, and will not be in salt water more that a couple of days at most, there is no reason for me to worry about touchng up these spots. I also presume at some point I could at least sand it down smooth, and re-paint. Sounds like it would be difficult (or expensive) to brnig back the smooth gel coat fnish. Any thoughts are welcome.
Vic

From: thataway40 Sent: 10/3/2003 12:21 AM
Congratulations on the waterfront home! There are a number of ways to upgrade the lift. If you have single cables on each side, you can go to double cables with a block and take a 5,000 lift to a 10,000 lb lift. In my previous home I had a single motor lift with doubled cables which was rated at 6,000 lbs. Our other boat is a 28 foot deep V and we put in a 10,000 lb lift, plus redid a dock for about 6K at our new house(Pensacola FL). Even if you have to add a second lift motor and change the tubing etc, it shouldn't cost more than a couple of thousand dollars. If you can send photos of the lift, perhaps I can make some more specific suggestions. of the parts are off the shelf items for a lift--there is a outfit which advertises in "Boats and Harbors" the gear, switch and motor for about $400. The bearings are sleeve, greased and you can use galvanized or SS cable. The pipe is available at any plumbing supply house.
If the pilings are in good shape, you may just want to add some X bracing.


Trinidad SR is the paint of choice for most of the south. You will have to dewax, lightly sand or etch the bottom. I don't know the extent of blistering problem on the C Dory--but most new boats have Vinyl ester resin which is a good barrer coat. If not, sanding lightly, washing well, and then applying several coats of West Systems Epoxy with a fine foam roller. I would not take a belt sander to the bottom of a boat for a number of reasons. Old bottom paint can be removed by a liquid peeling process, small sections at a time.

Personal opinion is go for the upgrade lift--much easier on the boat!

Bob Austin
C Pelican (West Coast)


From: MichaelOnTheClaraMae Sent: 10/3/2003 12:29 AM
Greg, I am impressed with the bottom job you did on the Red Fox. How did you support the bow? Just one jack under the stem/keel? And Joe, your reasoning is right on target. The cost of painting the bottom and paying slip fees for only 2 years is equal to retrofitting the lift to a 10,000# capacity. And I would much rather have the boat here at the house on a lift than down the road in the water.
Thanks for the words of encouragement Chuck. Everything is relative though and all of us are tapped out at one time or another. Your point is well taken though and I agree the lift is by far the best option. I applied for a permit with OCRM (Ocean Coastal Resource Management) today to make the change, which will include repositioning the lift and driving a couple more piles.

The other great news is that we have another good topic for future reference on our tech site. Thanks to everyone for your quick response.

Michael

From: MichaelOnTheClaraMae Sent: 10/3/2003 12:45 AM
Vic,

Sounds like you are in need of a decent bottom job. I wouldn't try to get your gel coat finish back, but sometime in the future I would consider sanding that puppy smooth and repainting with a good bottom paint made for trailering. And I'll bet you would notice the difference. The Clara Mae rides smoother with just the top washed down . Note Bob's comments about "liquid peeling".

From: MichaelOnTheClaraMae Sent: 10/3/2003 12:57 AM
Well Bob it looks like you and I are in step here. Thanks for the congrats and advice. Right now the lift is set up on one pile. Unfortunately, the lift will have to be moved to the opposite side of the dock and require a couple of new piles. I will try to take some pictures in the near future and keep you posted.

From: riverrat Sent: 10/3/2003 4:42 AM
Comment on removing built-up bottom paint, particularly the ablative types: Try a 1-1/2" flat steel putty knife with one side beveled to a sharp edge. You can get a series of small chips going, and essentially remove all the layers in one swipe. You will be doing overlapping strokes, maybe 1/2" at a time. The one caveat is don't use too steep an angle to the surface, or you will gouge. For the reverse chine corners, and around the keel, you can carefully round one corner of you putty knife with the grinder, so you have an edge to work into the angle. I could do a 29 ft. Larson bottom in four hours using this technique, just needed to dust in order to paint again. Sure got tired of bottom painting every winter, though. Love the gelcoat dark bottom on Chinook, and being able to store out of the water most of the time.

Riverrat on Chinook

From: C-ATTL-Angler85 Sent: 10/7/2003 9:02 PM
Thanks River Rat,
I picked up the chisel putty knife at Home Depot and will give it a try. At least I can access the big open areas while still on the trailer.

From: Redƒox Sent: 10/8/2003 12:47 AM
OK. Now I'm finally getting back here.

Michael, I used a stack of 12 inch steel I beam pieces, to support the bow with. What I did was, rested the bow eye, on it, cushioned with a piece of 2X4. It was very easy, to get it off the trailer, partly due to the single axle. I had one less axle in the way of all the block and tackle stuff used to get it off.

Vic. I would not worry bout the gel coat either, just sand and bottom paint. I'll bet you anything, it was not properly prepped first, it should not be peeling off. Re-gel coat, only if, you like that kind of labor, or have a chunk of doe to give a reputable place to do the job right. Once re-gel coated, it will never the same. You will only get a 'mechanical bond' with a fresh gel coat job, and not a 'chemical bond'.... like the original GC' finish.

From: C-ATTL-Angler85 Sent: 10/8/2003 8:51 PM
I tried the chiesel in a little spot on the back (where I;m about to install the new FF); it works fine, easy (just need to overlap like you said), and nice and surprisingly smooth underneath (like it has never been sanded). If I can clean away the blue residual around the sides well enough, I may be able to get by with no paint at all, or just paint around the sides. I don't really care what the bottom looks like as long as it's nice and smooth.

Thanks for the great advice; and I have definitely taken nw Gel Coat off the list.

[MichaelOnTheClaraMae]

Well without getting into to much of the whys and wherefores, the Clara Mae is going to get her bottom painted next week. With the neighbors that think she is too big (they actually petitioned against OCRM permit although I have been told we can get approval if we want it), too little water at low tide, and a few other "downers" related to keeping her at our new place on a lift, in the water at Mariners Cay it is.

So after calling around to find a good price and someone who sounds like they know what they are doing, I've had a couple of people tell me they can put a barrier coat on if I want it (for an additional cost of course), but that it really isn't necessary with today's bottom paints. RED... have you had any problem with yours? Any comments about this?

Thanks,
Michael

[Chuck S]

Have the hull barrier coated, this is the most important part.

Bottom paint itself will keep the marine growth off the bottom, but you'll still get water into the hull thru osmosis which will cause hull blisters. Repairing blisters is extremely expensive as it involves removing the gel coat and reapplying it. And a barrier coat.

I've no clue what an OCRM permit might be, nor why your neighbors would have much to say about you storing your boat on a hoist on your own property. Out of water moorage is much better than inwater, unless sitting on the boat at the dock is a primary purpose.