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Cosmic C
Joined: 10 Feb 2004 Posts: 97 City/Region: St Lawrence River & Bucks Cty
State or Province: NY
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Cosmic C
Photos: Cosmic C
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: Can I use the main hydraulic system to steer a kicker? |
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After 12,000+ miles (including the Great Loop) on a single engine, I was recently given a 9HP kicker in good condition which I have installed for the price of a mounting bracket. It came with the throttle lines intact but no steering mechanism. It is currently bolted in a fixed position so that the only way to steer when using the kicker is to use the main engine as a rudder. This is very inefficient and I am wondering whether I could purchase a hydraulic steering mechanism for the kicker and incorporate it into the main hydraulic system so that I can steer the kicker from the main helm. My idea is to connect the kicker hydraulic lines to the main engine hydraulic lines using two tees, and use four shut-off valves to choose which steering mechanism is connected to the helm. Close the two valves on the kicker lines and open the two valves on the main engine lines when using the main engine, and close the valves on the main engine lines and open those on the kicker lines when using the kicker. I would appreciate any thoughts from the experts on this idea. Many thanks! |
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Wandering Sagebrush
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 2770 City/Region: Northeast Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: |
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There are several linkage systems that will steer both the main and kicker. Some are solid rods, SeaStar has a flexible system. I would not try to divert the hydraulics. _________________ "And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." - Abraham Lincoln |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20829 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: |
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You "could" use the hydraulics--but 95% of boaters like the engines mechanically, either at the "tiller arms", or with linkages at the lower units.
If you want to to the more expensive route with the hydraulics, it would be better to use a two way valve, rather than 4 on/off valves.
If you use an autopilot, then the mechanical link would be better. The autopilot would have to be re-calibrated for the smaller motor if doing it hydraulically. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Cosmic C-
Here's the easiest system I know of:
EZ-Steer
(Can't seem to import the photo.)
Joe. _________________ Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8555 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Joe, I like that one! I have a rod that connects the engines right at the front just below the edge of cowling, and it works fine for the main to PULL the kicker, but not for the main to PUSH the kicker. When the main is pushing the kicker, sooner or later, usually sooner, the rod bends. Consequently, I can't really use it. This looks like it would be stiff enough to push or pull the kicker when you turn the main, right? How about more specific information on it? _________________
DAYDREAM - CD25 Cruiser
CRABBY LOU - CD16 Angler (sold 2020)
Pat & Patty Anderson, C-Brat #62!
http://daydreamsloop.blogspot.com
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Wandering Sagebrush
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 2770 City/Region: Northeast Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sea Wolf wrote: | Cosmic C-
Here's the easiest system I know of:
EZ-Steer
(Can't seem to import the photo.)
Joe. |
These work nicely, but can be a pain to hook up when you're in the water. We use the rod in front of the engine w/ no problem. I've never seen the rod bend or flex. It's solid stainless, and around 3/8" in diameter. |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I've never had any problem with an EZ-Steer rod bending, and just leave them connected all the time if I expect to use the kicker during a trip.
However, if the two motors are connected lower down on their lower drive legs, I can see where connecting and dis-connecting them in the water would be a problem.
You can leave the rod connected when raising or lowering one or the other motors or both of them.
Joe. |
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Pat Anderson
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 8555 City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Wandering Sagebrush wrote: |
These work nicely, but can be a pain to hook up when you're in the water. We use the rod in front of the engine w/ no problem. I've never seen the rod bend or flex. It's solid stainless, and around 3/8" in diameter. |
I'v had a couple of them, and never had one that DIDN'T bend! This is a 3/8" threaded stainless rod, and as far as I can tell, it is useless when it is bent like this!
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Wandering Sagebrush
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 2770 City/Region: Northeast Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Pat Anderson wrote: | Wandering Sagebrush wrote: |
These work nicely, but can be a pain to hook up when you're in the water. We use the rod in front of the engine w/ no problem. I've never seen the rod bend or flex. It's solid stainless, and around 3/8" in diameter. |
I'v had a couple of them, and never had one that DIDN'T bend! This is a 3/8" threaded stainless rod, and as far as I can tell, it is useless when it is bent like this!
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Pat, my new engine necessitated a bend exactly like that. It seems to work fine. I'm at a loss why yours is bending when being pushed. Is the kicker stiff when pushed? Rod catching on something? |
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localboy
Joined: 30 Sep 2006 Posts: 4656 City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Pat perhaps the kicker pivot adjustment is too tight? I loosened ours to the point that it can be moved with one finger. _________________ "We can go over there...behind the 'little one'....."
Wife to her husband pointing @ us...from the bow of their 50-footer; Prideaux Haven 2013 |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, that rod is a classic demonstration of compression bending. 3/8" doesn't seem like a very large diameter. What you need is a rod that has more resistance to bending, such as a larger diameter tube. Saw off the ends, buy a length of tubing and visit a welding shop. Remember, only the outer part of the rod takes bending stress, so a larger tube will be stronger and lighter.
Or, you could decrease the load by making sure that the kicker is free to move; either by loosening the damper or greasing the pivots.
Boris |
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drbridge
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 Posts: 220 City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Susan Marie
Photos: Susan Marie
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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We use a tie rod the same as the one Pat is showing is bent and have had no problems with it. We have a 90hp Honda and tie it to a 8hp Honda and both motors are left in the down position while tied together.. We have many hours fishing in very nice to very rough waters. I would think that there must be something binding on the kicker for it to bend like this. These tie rods have been commonly used on many different types of boats for years. They have a quick release and must be removed before raising either of the motors. It is very easy to remove them and reinstall from the cockpit _________________ Doug & Susan |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's very important to keep the geometry simple and more:
A. Kicker must be kept as parallel as possible to main motor for efficient force transfer with tube level at same height on both motors, without diagonal link, which would increase the stress with forces not aligned for easy transfer. A kicker mounting bracket can introduce some crazy alignment problems here.
B. Tube attachment at far rear of motors or far front, to increase leverage arm. Too close to center of turning radius increases force necessary to transfer movement & steer. Big and small motors will have different leverage arm lengths simply due to size differences. You may be able to engineer this out of the equation by how you mount the connecting brackets on the motors, at least when mounted at the rear.
C. Advantage to have "fail safe" release mechanism built into the linking arm which can allow the arm to lengthen or shorten if the force transfer becomes excessive to prevent arm bending/failure. This is built into the EZ-Steer system and the release point is adjustable. (I have no affiliation with mfr., just know from experience it works!)
My 2 cents!
Joe. |
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starcrafttom
Joined: 07 Nov 2003 Posts: 7887 City/Region: marysville
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 27 Cruiser
Vessel Name: to be decided later
Photos: Susan E
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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pat??? only you....
I have the same rod on the 225 hp to the 15 hp hondas and I never take them apart. If set up right you can raise and lower the motors separately. Your kicker should be able to move with little or no resistance. _________________ Thomas J Elliott
http://tomsfishinggear.blogspot.com/ |
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starcrafttom
Joined: 07 Nov 2003 Posts: 7887 City/Region: marysville
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1984
C-Dory Model: 27 Cruiser
Vessel Name: to be decided later
Photos: Susan E
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