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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
Posts: 648
City/Region: Cordova
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: house battery not charging Reply with quote

I have a mini ACR, and have discovered a very new anxiety!! My start battery is charging and isolating just fine, but my house battery is not charging at all. I've verified this with meters to each battery while charging via alternator, and with the motor off.

This is new! Just happened yesterday. I was out fishing, watching sonar, listening to the radio, and then went to haul my anchor, and things started shutting off, and the windlass labored.

I had to connect both batteries with the emergency switch to get the anchor up. I had just set a longline as well, and today I had to go out to haul the longline and do the same. I kept both batteries connected the trip out to get the house battery charged as well.

The new anxiety I'm having is the fact that my fuel line passes right in front of my charging relay. I'll figure out how to re-route the fuel later, but I really want to not worry about this issue.

I have yet to get into it. My plan is to work through the wiring diagram from the house battery backwards, and find something loose, tightening everything as I go.

Is anyone familiar enough with these systems to tell me precisely where to look? My setup is a little tough to access, and if there were a part I could avoid taking apart I'd be happy.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your plan of cleaning and tightening all connectors is the best way to start. It sounds as if the ACR is not working--but this could be a connection--as well as a failure of the ACR.

Take the your digital volt meter and check the voltage on the start battery, and then the house battery with the engine running, after cleaning the connectors. If then the voltage on the two batteries is not the same, that suggests that the ACR is bad.

Also there is the possibility that the house battery is failing. Put it on a charger, and bring it up over 24 hours to be sure it is at full charge. Put a load tester on it to be sure. How old is the battery? What size is the battery?

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
Posts: 648
City/Region: Cordova
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Kushtaka
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The battery is brand spankin' new, and charged quite well for three or four trips. The ACR is less than a year old, but still, could be bad.

It seems like the switch should be fine. Does that seem right? I think I'll just go through the ACR And put it back together and test. I may kick myself for not taking the switch apart, but it seems to be doing its job.

Oh boats.
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ssobol



Joined: 27 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just have a switch and manage the battery charging manually. An ACR is just one more thing to go wrong at a bad time.
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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
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City/Region: Cordova
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C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, sorry I forgot, group 24 start battery, group 27 house battery. House battery is brand new.
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Robert H. Wilkinson



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
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Vessel Name: Romakeme IV
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssobol wrote:
I just have a switch and manage the battery charging manually. An ACR is just one more thing to go wrong at a bad time.


This is the school I go to as well! I did have a off, 1, 2, both switch fail once on the 1 position. That was from overheating though. Trying to start a 6 cyl. after running out of gas(with a mechanical fuel pump). After that I installed an electric inline fuel pump strictly for priming if one tank sucked air.

You can check your switch function with an ohm meter or continuity checker.

I agree with Bob as well - charge the battery up from a shore power source then test. If its new - probably OK, but sometimes auto rated batteries can develop a bad or internally shorted cell from excessive vibration.

Regards, Rob

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breausaw



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking maybe you're mini ACR is not rated for 2 batteries, it either failed or is malfunctioning.

If you don't find any obvious bad connection, try bypassing the ACR.

Looking at your album it appears you only have a single 2 way on off isolator switch.

In bypassing the ACR you'll have to attached you're starting and house battery together as one.

I assume each battery has its own breaker switch, this is a must!

If this solves your charging problem I would suggest installing a 4 position switch (1,both,2, off).

With this switch installed you can manage your batteries as you see fit, I only suggest leaving the switch in the both position whenever underway that way both your batteries will always be topped off.

Let me just say I'm not a big fan of automatic charging relays.

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2007 22ft C-Dory Triple J 2007-2012
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BrentB



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ACR could be bad or mis wired or something wrong with battery

Battery can tested with load tester and newer high end testers give a printout.

I would contact the ACR company tech support

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Robert H. Wilkinson



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a group 24 start and a group 31 house. I check voltage of both independently before starting. Normally I leave switch on 1 until out of the marina to top off the start battery. Then switch to 2 for rest of cruise to charge house. I don't advise charging 2 different size/capacity/type/age batteries on the same circuit. It can result in one being overcharged and one undercharged. If the start battery is almost fully charged and the house depleted - the higher voltage of the start battery will raise the combined voltage in the circuit and make the alternator think the house battery is more charged than it really is.

To avoid this I have on occasion used a charger plugged into my invertor to charge or maintain the one bank.

Regards, Rob
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breausaw



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert H. Wilkinson wrote:
I use a group 24 start and a group 31 house. I check voltage of both independently before starting. Normally I leave switch on 1 until out of the marina to top off the start battery. Then switch to 2 for rest of cruise to charge house. I don't advise charging 2 different size/capacity/type/age batteries on the same circuit. It can result in one being overcharged and one undercharged. If the start battery is almost fully charged and the house depleted - the higher voltage of the start battery will raise the combined voltage in the circuit and make the alternator think the house battery is more charged than it really is.

To avoid this I have on occasion used a charger plugged into my invertor to charge or maintain the one bank.

Regards, Rob


Don't over think this whole thing, I have 3 batteries 2 same one outlier all nominal. Batteries are 5 + years old and check out fine. Generators are history, alternatobrs rule. Have never overcharged or cooked a battery on any boat.
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breausaw



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Currant takes the path of least resistance. Think of your batteries as jugs of water. Lets say you have 3, one full, one almost empty and the other about half full. Now think of current as water flowing in a pipe, this pipe is attached to all three batteries. As the current flows the jugs (batteries) charge.
No current enters the full battery because it's full, but the alternator (flow resistant sensor) detects no resistance because the current is flowing into the other two batteries.
The half empty an empty batteries fill at the same rate until the half empty fills, than all the current, being pushed by amperage, fills the empty battery.
The alternator detects the flow resistance and shuts off the flow of current.
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smckean (Tosca)



Joined: 18 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
.....than all the current, being pushed by amperage.....


Slight correction -- "...being pushed by VOLTAGE....."

To continue with your metaphor, think of amperage as the amount of water flowing per second in the pipe, and voltage as the pressure in the pipe. Pressure pushes water in the pipe.....voltage pushes amps in a wire.

Another image that works is imagine water flowing into a bucket. How fast the bucket is filling is analogous to amps (amp = coulombs/second -- with coulombs being the number of actual electrons, and with electrons being the water itself in this analogy). The force of the water coming out of the hose (a dribble vs a stream that would shoot 10 feet) is analogous to volts. Note that the a bucket can be filled in the same amount of time in 2 ways: large diameter hose at low pressure (lots of amps but low voltage); or small diameter hose with high pressure (few amps at high volts).
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The alternator detects the flow resistance and shuts off the flow of current.
It is a bit more complicated. The alternator is dumb--it just produces the power. Most outboards do not have a sophisticated regulator, as many inboards, our cars, and most battery chargers do. This is why the outboards continue to put out 14.4 (up to 14.8 in some cases) volts even when the battery is approaching full charge. This can lead to excess charging, overheating and boiling off of electrolyte. But in reality, most of us do not run our boats enough to cause a problem.

The good alternator regulator--or charger--starts with a bulk current, which is increasing voltage as the device puts out maximum current (allowed by the batteries resistance). The outboard motor basically stays in bulk charge state.

The more sophisticated regulator/charger then goes into absorption phase at about 80% state of charge. There the voltage remains constant, and the amperage decreases as the resistance of the battery increases. A good regulator/charger will have a temperature feedback circuit to prevent battery overheating. This last 20% of charge is much slower, and the major reason that we rarely fully charge the boat batteries as we run the boat, especially if there are large draws, such as refrigeration.

The final stage is float, where the battery is up to full charge, and this maintains the voltage above the batteries steady state voltage (which is 12.6 to 12.7 at full charge)--generally about 13.2 to 13.4 volts.. To charge the battery that last 20% is a good reason to put your batteries on a smart charger between uses.
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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
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City/Region: Cordova
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C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bob, FTW!

I've noticed that when in normal mode (now just charging the start battery) I draw over 14 volts on the boat's gauge. When I run in emergency mode (which I now need to do to charge both batteries) I get around 13.5 volts.

Makes sense. I don't think the acr provides any voltage regulation.
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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
Posts: 648
City/Region: Cordova
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Kushtaka
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I emailed Blue Seas and got a response the same day with a very simple troubleshooting guide that I'm to go through. Once I do, I'll end up with a pile of data (mostly voltages measured under different circumstances). I'd be happy to post it here, but I don't see how to upload a pdf. Any ideas?

So far, a very good experience with their customer service. At least there's that.
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