ETEC Cold Water Performance

Byrdman · Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject:

WOW....am I the only one having ficht flashbacks here? Get it near perfect and put it out there....and let the public do the field testing.....

Too much money and too competitive of market for me. Guess I am going to just buy that real nice evenrude oil some have talked about and keep my fine runinng 84 modle.

byrdman

tpbrady · Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject:

J.R.

I appreciated the information. I haven't had any issues with the power head, but one thing I did, everytime the no oil alarm came on, was go through the oil system priming routine (winterization) and the alarm went away for the day. I actually corrected the no oil alarm problem by using the Skidoo snow machine equivalent of the XD-100 (called XPS-100). I never got the no oil alarm after I started using it even with air temps in the 20's and water in the 40's. I still have an issue with oil consumption being 2 to 2.5 times what it should be. That is related to the engine operating at too cold a temperature to get out of the "warmup mode". Essentially it seems to always be operating operating cold. BRP is apparently not seeing this in the larger blocks (4 cyl on up). I suspect it has something to do with mass. The mass of the three cylinder probably sheds heat faster than the 4 cylinder, so all things being equal, the 90 doesn't heat up enough to reach the designed operating temperature range. While I have not seen the EMM data, I understand my engine is running about 20 degrees cooler than designed. If you assume a normal operating temperature, the oil alarm will also go away as the engine heat also heats the oil making it flow better.

What's the solution? Only BRP knows. A friend of mine cornered a BRP rep in Anchorage for the boat show last week. He was able to get out of BRP that they are going to fix the cold weather problem. I have a time line in mind, and like Joe said, if they don't meet my timeline, I plan to invoke something in the Uniform Commercial Code known as the warranty of merchantibility for a specific purpose. In other words an outboard motor that won't run correctly or at all in Alaska in the normal range of operating conditions, cannot be sold as an outboard motor.

If they can't fix it, then I will take a 90 Johnson 4 stroke or 115hp ETEC four cylinder in trade and then ask C-Dory for a new placard. That would seem like a fair trade.

tpbrady · Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:21 pm Post subject:

Now that it's spring, I got the latest software map loaded and will go in the water this weekend. I also got a copy of the engine history report and it was quite revealing. In the 115 operating hours recorded by the EMM on 1.7% of the time was the engine operating between a temperature of 158 to 176 degrees where the thermostat would have been open. 11.6% of the time it was operating between 140 and 158 degrees where the thermostat would have been open only above 150 degrees. 39% of the time the engine was operating in a range of 86 to 104 degrees. 53% of the engine hours were between 3000 and 4500 rpm.

I would conclude from this that the engine was running far below the optimum temperature. Before I pass judgement, I will run the engine with the new software.

tpbrady · Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject:

I had my day on the water and on the positive side, the new software and XD-100 oil solved the no oil alarm. It was 10 degrees this morning and when I launched about 32. No alarms.

On the negative side, oil consumption is still through the roof for an
ETEC (12.5 gals gas and 13.2 oz of oil, the same as last year). The water temperature was in the low to mid 40's and the engine simply couldn't warm up. As a result it consumes a lot oil and more gas than necessary. On top of that it has a noticeable miss between 1800 and 3000 rpm. I started the day with new plugs (indexed) and it seems one is fouled already.

If it's not my engine, then it is a design flaw in northern climates making the engine unsuitable for use in water temperatures below 50 to 55 degrees.

Sawdust · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:02 am Post subject:

This is a funny deal. I run the E-Tec 90 in 40-45 degree water all the time... normal for here, but surface temps are above freezing or this old guy doesn't go out. My oil consumption is just as specified in the book. I don't know what the water temp. is in the E-Tec, but it runs fine for me. No plug fouling and many, many hours on a tank of oil. Fuel consumption as good as any 4-stroke. What gives? Wish I knew.

Dusty

gljjr · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:13 am Post subject:

It would be interesting to see the difference in the computer read outs between the two motors. Especially looking at the water temp.

Tom, Given that you have never had this thing run correctly I would hit them up for a replacement. You shouldn't be having these problems. I wonder if you have a bad sensor connection that is goofing up the settings on the computer? It would be pretty hard to diagnose something like that (I once spent 40 hours doing that on a Mercedes when I was working as a mechanic), especially if it is intermittent.

Good luck finding the problem!

Rabidfish · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:43 am Post subject:

Fact of the matter... Comparing an engine that is running properly is a pefectly viable diagnostic tool. Or... Even better... Get a printout of your own engine when it is running well to use as a "control". Save it in your boat papers, then if you have an issue use this as a comparison.

Tom,

I'll be rigging a couple of 90s in the next week or two. I'll send you a copy, although it may not necessarily be what your engine should read, due to diferences in location, etc... It may help shed a little light.

John from IL · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: Cold Running Engine

Your engine is running way too cold Tux

and it is unusual - I would say its more likely a defective part than design defect.

There's more to the E-TEC cooling system than the water pump and thermostat and I suspect something has been missed. That something would be the pressure relief valve.

Most of the 40-90hp E-TECs I've rigged, worked on, run, etc. run in the 158 - 160 degree range at speeds below approximately 2000 rpm and no less than 145 degrees at speeds above 2000 rpm.

You posted that less than 2% of the time your engine is running in what I know to be the normal temp range for this engine. I would insist your dealers tech check the pressure relief valve (also known as a "blow-off" valve). It could have an improperly installed seat, a ripped diaphragm or maybe a weak spring. Any of those conditions would cause too much water to flow thru the block causing it to run too cold.

The V6's will run the same as you describe when cold, and it stands to reason the smaller ones would behave the same way. I know when operating temps are correct, they will run as expected.

I've got several customers who fish Lake Michigan, Green Bay and other inland lakes where water temps are in the high 30's/low 40's. They're not having the problem you've experienced.

I hope this info helps correct the problem you're having.

-John

tpbrady · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject:

Thanks John for the explanation of the cooling system. I spend most of working time designing and troubleshooting RF distribution networks, data networks, and VSAT's. What's missing in most technical documents I work with is a theory of operation, in other words, this is how it works. Illustrated parts breakdowns and maintenance procedures, don't tell you how to figure out what's broken in the first place. You have filled in a key piece of the theory. It sounds like the pressure relief valve is designed to open under under the higher pressures generated by increasing temperature and speed through the water. If it's allowing too much water through the block, the thermostat is basically useless.

I spoke with the dealer today, and when the dock gets in the water in Anchorage in about 3 weeks, they are going for an on the water check with computer attached. I've about reached my limit of trying to convince the service people that something is wrong with my engine when the evidence is starting to be overwhelming.

Rabidfish · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject:

I'd also like to see an actual temp reading from the thermostat housing. Just to compare it to the reading the EMM says it's reading.

In other words... Is the engine running at the temp the EMM "thinks" it's running at?

tpbrady · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject:

If I understand the way the cooling system works when the motor is first started and when cold, either the thermostat or pressure relief valve will let some water into the block. The thermostat almost has to be on the outlet so I would assume it would be what ultimately controls the low temperature operation. As the engine warms up the thermostat would open to allow more water through. The pressure relief serves two functions. If temperature rises rapidly and the thermostat doesn't open resulting in a buildup of pressure, the pressure relief valve would let more water through the block. In addition at high speed through the water the increasing pressure could also open the pressure relief valve allowing more water into the block. The pressure relief is like a radiator cap releasing under too much pressure, except in this case it is more fail safe in its operation as it introduces more cooling water into the motor where as the radiator cap just let's you know things got too hot.

Makes sense that one or the other is not doing its job. At $7.50 per plug and $30 per gallon for oil, the fix is priceless so to speak.

Rabidfish, your tips on indexing were right on. I went three for three on Saturday. I just had to swap one from the 2 slot the 3 slot and they all got within 90 degrees.

chromer · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject:

If I were to buy a new 2006 Etec, would I benefit from all these troubled experiences. In other words, does Evinrude constantly improve year over year?

Sawdust · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject:

All these troubled experiences are one - as I see it. I've not heard of another E-Tec 90 with the same problem, and both of mine run great in 40 +/- water. A faulty pressure relief valve could be the culprit. Had the same problem in my Audi - very costly, and much dealer diagnostic time -- just improperly seated, but took a loooooonnnggg time to fix.

Tom, sure hope this one goes away for you!!!!

Dusty

Larry H · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject:

chromer,

When I was an Evinrude mechanic, Evinrude did constantly fix or improve problem areas. Usually it was a service bulletin notice, with advise on repair or replacement of parts with newly designed ones.

Problems not needing immediate fixes were redesigned for the next model year.

Evinrude's motor design was an evolution with some all new designs each year and many carry over models with improvements.

C-Fisher · Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject:

I have been following this problem from the beginning,here and other websites, as I am going through some of the same issues. But I have noticed it is only with early models, 2004-2005. There is also TWO problems here and tpbrady has them both. The main problem and most common is fixed with a software upgrade. The other problem that tpbrady has seems just like a problem that the E-Tec 225's have with a bad batch of pressure valves. There is a service bulletin on this also. Since he has a 90hp my guess is same problem maybe different reason, ie. bad install.

With my E-Tec I got the no oil alarm on cold mornings and I fouled 3 sets of plugs every 100 hrs. but my oil consumtion was normal. Software upgrade fixed mine.

Just thought I would throw in my 1 cent opinion in case it might help.

C-Fisher