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Bob&Alicia
Joined: 29 Aug 2015 Posts: 50 City/Region: Athens
State or Province: GA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Photos: Bob&Alicia
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Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:30 pm Post subject: Vberth Storage Project-(bilge access) |
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We decided to do like some other owners and cut 3 openings in our Vberth and remove the foam so that we would have more storage. I am truly amazed at how much room is under the berth. I have some questions input for you guys at the end of this write-up.
How we did it.....
I am not a very "handy" person so it has taken the better part of two days to get where we are today. I will post updated pictures as we go along. Using some ideas and best "guess" for sizing off other posts on this side we made 3 card board templates. Once we were happy with the size I cut two wood templates out of some scrap 1/2 plywood. The Port and Forward are the same size and Stbd is smaller. If I did it again I would probably forgo the wood templates. I found it hard to cut around. The cardboard helped get the feel for the size and to mark the fiberglass. The layer of painters tape with a sharpie mark might be all you need.
We laid out several strips of painters tape and marked with a sharpie the cut line and had the wood template. I left the middle of the cut open and used some double sided tape to help hold the wood template in place. I also screwed an "arm" onto the template that could rotate. This kept it from falling in as I cut.
Alicia did a great job laying out the pattern and tape. She also hung all the plastic. We covered the mechanical stuff and fixtures and made a curtain of plastic.
I decided to replace my cheap 30 year old jigsaw with a new 6 amp 1 inch up/down cut Ryobi Jigsaw with a wet/dry vac port on the back. The wet/dry vac port all but eliminated the dust. I have a 25' hose and had the vac outside the boat.
I wore a Tyvex suit, googles, face shield, and gloves. It was 85 today so I was a little hot.
I used a diamond tile blade for the Jigsaw. This cut like butter. The only problem was I bent the blade and did not realize it and cut at a beveled angle. Sweat was pouring into my eyes and I couldn't see the details of what I was doing. I was able to "fix" this later.
Once the 3 "hatches" were opened I found a really half way job of spray in foam. Most of it was not attached to the hull and easy to pull up. The bottom of it was like brown sugar. Whatever chemical reaction it had with the hull did not work well and it did not cure properly. A total waste of effort to put that in there. Not sure why they bothered.
I was surprised that it was wet as well. The boat is dry stack stored and we have had some mold problems. Alicia has asthma and can't tolerate the mold. A couple of trips to the boat was spent just getting rid of mold. I hired a boat cleaning company to change the damp rid and they used their dehumidifiers and commented for the size of boat they were surprised at the dampness and the fact they couldn't seem to beat it. I suspect the foam did not help.
There is some foam residue left on the hull where it originally stuck until it came loose. I am thinking about trying to remove it and painting the area (bilge). I read somewhere that garage floor epoxy paint might be an option. I've got to figure out how to remove the foam residue. Probably light sanding with the air sander and maybe wipe down with Acetone.
I used a Harbor Freight air sander with 120 grit paper to smooth out the edges of the cutout parts. I plan on using them as the new "hatch board" for the new storage. I also used the air sander to smooth the edges of the berth cut and a small palm sander with a triangle point to do the curved part. The wet/dry vac helped control the dust.
Questions and Next Steps:
The port opening might be a little big. Looks like a lot of my weight will be over the opening when I sleep. I don't want my 200lbs to fall through. I am concerned that I make a strong enough retainer lip to hold up a lot of weight.
I want to make a "lip" that the cutouts (hatch boards) rest on top of. Probably a two inch wide strip that is attached to the fiberglass. I am thinking of either using wood or the PVC wood alternative found at Lowes/HD. I read online that the PVC "wood" can be burnished with a torch or coated with PVC glue to cause it to reach successfully with Epoxy. I could epoxy the PVC or regular wood. I could also use 5200 for regular wood that I put an epoxy barrier on. If you guys think it is wise I could shoot some stainless screws downward into the wood. I would need to order some marine grade.
Questions:
What would you make the "lip" out of and how would you attach it?
Would you paint the inside of the storage area?
(I can't seem to figure out how to post pics. They're in my album. I will try to embed them into this write-up but didn't want to loose the write-up) _________________ Bob and Alicia |
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Robert H. Wilkinson
Joined: 26 Jan 2011 Posts: 1235 City/Region: Port Ryerse
State or Province: ON
Vessel Name: Romakeme IV
Photos: Romakeme IV
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colbysmith
Joined: 02 Oct 2011 Posts: 4559 City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
Photos: C-Traveler and Midnight-Flyer
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drbridge
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 Posts: 220 City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Susan Marie
Photos: Susan Marie
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like a really nice project you have going. I may do something similar myself if I ever get time. For your lip consider doing this.
Use the wood not PVC, (Kiln dried Doug Fir is a good choice-Oak is not so good) as the epoxy will adhere to the wood much better. Dry fit the wood lip by clamping it to the V berth. Drill holes through the v berth and in to the wood lip. use stainless sheet metal screws to secure the lip to the V berth. After everything fits like you want it take it apart. epoxy coat your wood 2 coats. sand the gluing area with 60 grit. Do the same with the fiberglass that it will be glued to. Mix some thickened epoxy to the consistency of peanut butter and coat the glue surface of the wood. now use your screws to clamp the lip back to the fiberglass and tighten them gently. clean up the mess with denatured alcohol and paper towels. Once the epoxy has cured to the touch you will still be able to back out the screws. Let it cure some more and then fill the screw holes with epoxy. This will be very, very strong and the epoxy encapsulated wood will last the life of your boat. I have a wood boat that I built and the entire lap strake hull is held together in this manner.
Hope this Helps. _________________ Doug & Susan |
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Bob&Alicia
Joined: 29 Aug 2015 Posts: 50 City/Region: Athens
State or Province: GA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Photos: Bob&Alicia
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:44 pm Post subject: Epoxy coat |
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Doug,
Thanks for the info. I have just a little West Systems epoxy on hand. I'll have to go out of town to West Marine to get some West System epoxy and the filler. The only thing Home Depot has is a quart made by Elmers and they didn't have any thickening agents.
Is there a reason not to just leave the screws in there? Looks like they would add more to the holding power?
Thanks
Bob |
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drbridge
Joined: 25 Jun 2014 Posts: 220 City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Susan Marie
Photos: Susan Marie
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Bob
You certainly could leave the screws and be OK. The reasons I would remove them and fill with epoxy are 1: this will provide complete encapsulation of the wood 2: It will leave a flush service on the V berth.
The strength of a properly prepared epoxy bond will by far override the strength benefits of the screws. Do you need total encapsulation in this application? Not likely, as this portion of the boat will usually be pretty dry. As I mentioned before the hull of glued lapstrake boats are held together using these methods and for your purposes the epoxy bond will be more than adequate.
If you would like to do an experiment, do some stress tests gluing together wood and epoxy. When glued correctly the wood will break before the epoxy will. The epoxy will also bond to you fiberglass equally. Your west systems epoxy will be well suited for this job. You can use milled micro fibers for thickener. 95% of the time I use wood flour which is just very fine sawdust. It works very well and is very strong and makes a smoother mix to work with.
Also, don't forget to lightly sand the epoxy with 150 grit between coats. |
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msgchef
Joined: 31 Dec 2014 Posts: 55 City/Region: Washington
State or Province: NC
Photos: Seaweed
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
You might want to check out my photo album. Seaweed. I don't know how to provide a direct link. The Prev Owner did me right with his hard work on V berth storage. shows how he provided support for the covers. He also did mounting hooks for storage and led lights to find your way. Its a nice job, but again, no credit to me. _________________ "There are good ships,
and there are wood ships,
The ships that sail the sea.
But the best ships, are friendships,
And may they always be."
2015-2018 Seaweed |
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Bob&Alicia
Joined: 29 Aug 2015 Posts: 50 City/Region: Athens
State or Province: GA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Photos: Bob&Alicia
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:55 pm Post subject: A quick update....still working on the project |
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I wanted to post a quick update and post what I've learned.
First, I should not quit my day job, however, I have found a very effective diet. If buying groceries is one day dependent on my boat modification skills I WILL lose weight!
I still can't believe the amount of storage that has opened up. We will probably get most of the Aft most Port Storage and under the Table storage for day to day use versus power cables, spare parts, etc.
Things I learned....
1) Cut the Lip boards as butt joints and NOT picture frame joints. For two reasons. One, I can't cut 45 degree angle joints AND you're putting a rectangle under an oval opening. Two, I ran the long pieces about 2" past where the short piece intersects. This will give more epoxied surface of wood to boat. I didn't think that would hurt.
2) I found out the Wood Flour is significantly cheaper than any West Systems Epoxy filler. My Amazon order is on the way.
3) Always, test your epoxy. I had some West Systems and some generic epoxy left over from when I friend (works on boats as a profession) helped me restore a 13" Jolly Boat dinghy (now called Rigid dinghy). I tested the West Systems epoxy and have just enough to do the actual gluing but not enough to coat the other three exposed sides. I used the generic epoxy to coat the exposed three sides saving the expensive stuff for the actual adhesion. Well....from what I can tell on the WWW the hardner has a short shelf life and I have coated 3 sides of my cut wood with a sticky mess that will not "kick"/harden. So I am off to buy more wood.
4) Kiln dried wood. I bought wood that was dried but I have confirmed not Kiln Dried. I will need to go to a specialty lumber yard for Kiln Dried fir. Having the driest wood seems to make sense because I am about to encapsulate it with epoxy.
Overall, I am still glad I started this project even though I am a little disappointed out some of the issues.
I wanted to say thanks to everyone that has posted suggestions. I have truly learned as the project has gone on. Thanks!! |
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AstoriaDave
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 994 City/Region: Astoria
State or Province: OR
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ordinary air dried fir is just fine for epoxy adhesion. No need for kiln dried. _________________ Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR |
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Tom on Icarus
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 175 City/Region: Campbell River, Vancouver Island
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tranquil~C
Photos: Tranquil~C
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to hear from other brats who have done this V-berth storage project on their CD25 about the hatch cut out sizes.
I made cardboard templates in three sizes.
Port side: 14"X 20"
Starboard side: 11"X20"
Bow: 16"X16"
I want to make sure these openings are not too big for structural reasons and not too small for practical reasons before I make the cuts.
What sizes worked for you?
Cheers, Tom _________________ 22 Cruiser "Icarus" 2005 - 2011
25 Cruiser "Tranquil~C" 2011 - 2019
30 Commander (to be named) 2019 - |
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Bob&Alicia
Joined: 29 Aug 2015 Posts: 50 City/Region: Athens
State or Province: GA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Photos: Bob&Alicia
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Tom,
I will try to get to the boat and take some measurements. The Port and Forward are the same and Stbd a little smaller. I stayed 3-4" from the center cutout where the removable cushion is. We also stayed inside the "smooth" area and did not go outside of that. It is all still one piece but we didn't want to go across the grove from smooth to rough.
I have been crawling all over the area and at 200 lbs I have not had any flex more than what I would have had before. In other words I have fallen through.
I will say we worried a lot over what size to cut it and hoped for a Goldilocks size. |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3382 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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My boat came with the storage spaces under the V-berth. However, the openings for the side compartments were pretty small (same size as the lazarette hatches). The front compartment has a large hatch. I enlarged the side openings and put newer flat hatch covers (~12x24"). Since I didn't do the original cuts, I did not have the cut out pieces for the hatch covers. The hatch covers I used are hinged, but I did not screw them in and just use them as lift out covers. It is easier to do this with the mattress in place.
IME, I found that there is a lot of storage space under the v-berth. But it is a pain to get stuff in and out with the mattress and bedding in place. The v-berth storage is best for things that you don't need to get to that often.
One of these days I intend to put a water tank in the forward storage compartment. But making a support for a heavy tank that fits in the bow peak is going to be a pain so I haven't done it yet.
FWIW, I installed LED lights in the v-berth compartments controlled by a switch. This allows you to see what's where and get it out without trying to hold the mattress up, hold a flashlight, and try to get what you want in or out of the compartment.
In my boat, the gelcoat or paint inside the compartments never cured. It it was always tacky. I painted over it with the paint I used on the interior of the cabin. Also, I lined the side compartments with indoor/outdoor carpeting from HD to keep things from rattling around in there. |
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ken35216
Joined: 12 Mar 2013 Posts: 569 City/Region: Destin, Florida
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2017
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Lady Onyx
Photos: ken35216
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bob,
Are you leaving the side windows, front hatch, and the door to the cabin open? I never had any problems as long as I let the boat air out.
I also made the marina guys ($5) drain the bilge and then propped open the hatches in the cockpit open that give access to the batteries and bilge.
From the pics you're doing a fantastic job on the storage in the v-berth.
Ken _________________ 2007 25 Cruiser 150 Suzuki (2013-2016)
2017 25 Cruiser 200 Yamaha (2017-present) |
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Tom on Icarus
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 175 City/Region: Campbell River, Vancouver Island
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tranquil~C
Photos: Tranquil~C
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies.
BobandAliicia: You nailed it. That's what I am seeking....the Goldilocks size.
ssobol: Great idea to put lights and carpet in there. I'll probably do the same....if I am brave enough to make the cuts.
Cheers, Tom |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted. Boris |
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