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wdr99



Joined: 02 Dec 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject: 16 vs 19 vs 22 Reply with quote

Hi C-Folks,

My wife and I are interested in a C-Dory. And we're struggling with what size to get. I'm leaning towards a 19, maybe a 16, but that depends on the day.

We live on Lake Superior, and currently we sail only. We're just interested in covering more water, quicker. Here's the dilemma as I see it:

1. We want an easily trailerable boat, and the 22 seems to be a bit of a load at 4100 lbs or so. We love taking off at a moments notice and throwing the boat in for an afternoon. I've lived by the motto that boat use is inversely proportional to size (and complexity).

2. My wife wants confidence in the boat, and to her that means initial stability. Is the 16 a bit rolly, does our human ballast affect the lay of the boat a great deal?

3. We'd like the occasional day guest. Is the 16 comfortable for 3 to 4 adults out sightseeing in the bay for an afternoon?

4. Mostly we want to slow cruise the Apostles, the North Shore, Door County, etc. in reasonable comfort occasionally stringing together a handful of overnights.

5. We currently sail a Montgomery 15 and a Hobie Tandem Island, so I'm naturally inclined towards smaller boats. But I'm also not keen on being unnaturally cramped.

6. Is the factory making many 16s or 19s anymore, it seems like they specialize in the 22?

7. Also, I single-hand alot and I'm not wild about landing a 22 foot boat.

Thanks for your input!
Bill
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haliman



Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 163

State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 19 Angler
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget the 16. I have a 19 Angler but as the name says its more fishing than cruising. I would not put more than 3 people on my 19’ for fishing as it can get a little tight. If you are gonna have sometimes 4 people and do overnights and don’t plan on doing much fishing get the 22 cruiser. You can still fish the 22 if ya want. As far as weight the 22 specs say is is 1925 lbs. Not sure if that is with motor but either way I am guessing that boat, motor, fuel and gear you might be around 4,100 lbs but sure owners of the 22 will give you realistic numbers and advice. The 22 also has the closed back/cabin, sink, stove. The 19 has the open back/cabin unless you get the drop curtain which I have but never use. I like the open back but I use my boat mainly for fishin. You can get some pretty nice used 22’s. Check the boats for sale forum on this site. I have been on Lake Superior and I’m from Sacramento. That’s a big lake with big weather.

Good Luck!!
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MikeR



Joined: 21 Apr 2013
Posts: 474
City/Region: Mill Creek
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2016
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: MikeR
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bill, welcome! Everyone has different tolerances and comfort levels. For me, 3 is a crowd in the 16, two is OK, and one person is perfect! It is a rolly boat especially when lightly loaded, but I enjoy that and am comfortable with it. Some people have added seating in the 16, like a bench seat in the rear, and for a slow cruise on a calm day it's probably fine with 3 or 4 as long as you aren't fishing. The 16 is one of the easiest trailered boats I've ever owned, and have gone out on moment's notice many times on the 16.

If you decide the 16 is too small and look at the 19 you might as well also consider a 22 Angler, they are essentially the same boat, the 19 with 3 feet cut off the stern, so not much weight savings for towing the 19, but if on-trailer storage is an issue (length of driveway or garage) then yes the 19 could be a perfect match for what you are looking for! The 22 cruiser is a bit heavier than the Angler, due to the galley, dinette, larger cabin/roof, etc. With all that said, I find the 22 cruiser tows quite nicely with a full size pickup. But certainly not as easily as the 16 which goes anywhere with a 4-cyl car rated for 2000 lbs.

I'd say if you are already sailing on a 15 footer you might actually be OK with a boat as small as a 16. If you've not seen one in person, they are small boats...many people (typically non-boaters) who first see photos of the 16 think that it's an 18 or 19, but not even close! Think of the 16 as a skiff that happens to have a cabin on it.

Others will have differing views no doubt!

-Mike

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22' C-Dory Cruiser (2016)
16' C-Dory Angler (1989)
10' C-Dory Row Boat (1995)
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Wandering Sagebrush



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 2768
City/Region: Northeast Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill, welcome! I came from a M15 background as well. We had an 81, but sold after buying the 22 cruiser. Are you on Keith's list server? There are a couple of us here who either have or did have a Montgomery. Great little cruisers!

In my opinion, the 22 cruiser is the best option. There's plenty of room for two people, it doesn't take a of power to push it along, and they launch and recover as easy as the Monty. There are a number of folks who single hand their 22s, and hopefully they will chime in with their thoughts. Regardless of which you choose, they're good and capable.

Steve

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wdr99



Joined: 02 Dec 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WS: Interesting that you went from an M15 to a 22, and you feel like they launch and retrieve about the same. These waters are not uncharted!

MikeR and haliman: The beam on an M15 is 6' 2", looks like the 16 is 6' 6". When I think of it that way, as two boats very similar in size, I get the feeling that more than two adults would be a crowd.

Bill
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Wandering Sagebrush



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 2768
City/Region: Northeast Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wdr99 wrote:
WS: Interesting that you went from an M15 to a 22, and you feel like they launch and retrieve about the same. These waters are not uncharted!

MikeR and haliman: The beam on an M15 is 6' 2", looks like the 16 is 6' 6". When I think of it that way, as two boats very similar in size, I get the feeling that more than two adults would be a crowd.

Bill


Bill, they're different in the launch/retrieve, but no more difficult. Worst issue for me has been retrieving in a crosswind, but the guides do a pretty good job.

BTW, I had M15-159.
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Aurelia



Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 2331
City/Region: Gig Harbor
State or Province: WA
Photos: Aurelia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second Mikes thoughts on towing a 19. You can figure a difference of 200-400lbs between the 19 and 22 depending on final outfitting so they both put you in about the same place for a tow vehicle.

We had limited length on our storage so the 19 made a bit more sense but we are cruisers more than fisherfolk so we outfitted our 19 for cruising. Makes ours a heavy boat and I bet many folks who mainly fish out of their 22s have lighter towing weights than we do.

Greg

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Greg, Cindie & Aven
Gig Harbor
Aurelia - 25 Cruiser sold 2012
Ari - 19 Cruiser sold 2023
currently exploring with "Lia", 17 ft Bullfrog Supersport Pilothouse
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haliman



Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 163

State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 19 Angler
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wdr99 wrote:
WS: Interesting that you went from an M15 to a 22, and you feel like they launch and retrieve about the same. These waters are not uncharted!

MikeR and haliman: The beam on an M15 is 6' 2", looks like the 16 is 6' 6". When I think of it that way, as two boats very similar in size, I get the feeling that more than two adults would be a crowd.

Bill

Agreed about 2 would be a crowd that's why I say forget the 16. I fish the Pacific and my 19 has been in some nasty weather and not by choice. Lake Superior can get nasty quick without warning and you would really need to pick your weather days with any boat of course but especially with a 16. The 16 has it's place for sure but not a big water boat. Just my opinion.
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wdr99, Here is another chime in from a previous M-15 sailor. I had mine 4 years after I bought my C-Dory 22 Cruiser. AND yes there is a big difference, and no difference. I singlehand , launching and retrieving myself 99.9% of the time. If I have help, I ask them to watch the back of the baot so I don't bum;p into anything going down the ramp. (That keeps them out of the way and let's me get the job done. It is actually faster for me to launch the 22 than the M-15 once I'm into the parking lot.

The stability of the CD=16 is comparable to the M-15. It is tender to a point. The 22 will hardly notice when you step aboard. You won't have to move out of the cabin (V-birth) to sleep on the 22, and your wife will have a place to cook, wash her hands and be able to keep warm (with the Wallas on and the cabin door closed.

The 22, loaded and ready for cruising will come in (with the trailer) at 4500# or close. but will easily allow 3 or 4 adults on board, (I have had 6 for day trips) and you will have comfortable sleeping room, with a place for 2 to comfortably sit at a table, inside, out of the rain.

Yes it is a big decision, but it could (should) be a long lasting one. Get a personal, up close look at all three sizes; get rides on each, do your research, and then find your best deal. That will go best if you have the $$$$ in hand, because the good deals go quick.

Best to you in your searching.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


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wdr99



Joined: 02 Dec 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I notice in the pictures of Aurelia, a 19, that it has a closed cabin. And the new models seem to have an open cabin? Is that something that has changed over the years?

I appreciate all this conversation, it's already been very helpful. And two folks who migrated from M15s to C-Dory, very interesting!

Bill
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome aboard. A number of folks start with a 19 and then graduate to a 22. I have not owned a 19, but they are basically the same hull--just a little shorter.

I doubt that you would notice the difference in both trailering or launching. I have launched and run a 25 single handed. So I don't see that 22 as a problem--other than it is nice to have some one to back the truck down, makes it a little easier. I have an 18 center console for fishing, and I don't see the 22 as being much different for docking or launching. (At age 80).

Also depends on what you have or want to have for a tow vehicle. Although there are some small SUV's which can tow the 19/22, I prefer a larger SUV or 1/2 ton truck....

My own feeling is that the 16 would be a bit small for the Lake superior waters if it got a bit snotty!..But there are those who take them out in fairly rough weather.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
Posts: 648
City/Region: Cordova
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Kushtaka
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 16 sounds too small all around.

I think that you will find the towing of a 19 and 22 to be very similar. In your rearview mirror everything will be exactly the same. The extra 3' of hull aren't going to make a huge weight difference such that you would require a different class of vehicle. The extra length may add an element of a challenge on city streets, but you can get used to it. The 22 for all it offers on the water, is a very compact and trailerable boat.

Since you haven't specified, if you are in the used market, you will have the most options in a 22. But you might get a slightly better deal on a 19 since they are less common and so depreciate slightly more quickly for market reasons, not due to the boat's quality deteriorating more quickly. A good thing when it's time to buy, and a liability on the sale, regardless of whether you buy new or used because you will only be selling a used boat.

The 19s are mostly open cabin bulkheads. It may even be all and I've only seen pics of retrofit bulkheads, but that's a big difference in the layout. The separate cockpit/cabin is a nice thing for warmth and quiet, but is confining. The open bulkhead on the 19 actually imparts the feel of a slightly larger boat than a 22 cruiser. If you are looking for something more open and not likley to overnight, look for a 22 angler. It has a shorter cabin, but is more rare than the 22 cruiser most of us have.

Ok, now here is my direct opinion and advice: Lake Superior is no joke, and things there can get bad quickly. The CD 22 is, pound for pound, the most seaworthy boat on the water. You will be astounded if you ever have the misfortune of putting one to the test, but if you want to make a little room to breathe on you safety margin in unscheduled foul weather, the 22 is good insurance.
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Wandering Sagebrush



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 2768
City/Region: Northeast Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wdr99 wrote:
I notice in the pictures of Aurelia, a 19, that it has a closed cabin. And the new models seem to have an open cabin? Is that something that has changed over the years?

I appreciate all this conversation, it's already been very helpful. And two folks who migrated from M15s to C-Dory, very interesting!

Bill


In honesty, I wish I still had my M15. It would be a nice compliment to my CDory.

I believe the enclosed cabin is an owner added feature on the CD19.
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Aurelia



Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 2331
City/Region: Gig Harbor
State or Province: WA
Photos: Aurelia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our 19 has a custom bulkhead and they all come with just the canvas separating the cabin from the cockpit. The 22 anglers come with a bulkhead/door like the 22 model but I have seen some that were optioned to be canvas like a 19. We do like the openess of the 19 and with a canvas enclosure, use both parts of the boat as one space. We would have done similar with a 22 angler but our storage better fit the 19 and cabin space is the same on both.

Greg
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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome aboard. I think you will find the 22 launches and retrieves a bit easier than your Montgomery 15 - the M15 drafts 15", with that bit of a keel, the CD-22 is less than a foot. With the aft buoyancy of the 22, it will float off the trailer just as easily as your Monty.

Instead of crouching down into the cabin, you will walk into the cabin of the C-Dory and have full standing height... a dinette where you can look out the windows... 360º of viewing from anywhere in the cabin. You will likely get in more boating because that cabin will protect you from the cold, wind, and precip... and shade you when the sun is blazing.

If you plan to do any over-nighting, the 22 will be more comfortable than the 19 or the 16. Thanks to that solid bulkhead, it was also be quieter.

When we bought a CD-25, we "downsized" from a Corsair trimaran, but gained a bunch more liveability. We also had a Com-Pac SunCat (just a bit bigger than your M15) that we kept for a couple years after buying the C-Dory... just for those times that we thought we'd want to sail. The SunCat was a great little boat, but it barely got used after we bought the 25. My feelings (and that of my wife) were that the 25 was easier to launch than the SunCat... and the SunCat has a reputation for being one of the easiest to launch/rig trailersailors.

Get the 22 and you will feel like you are living in the lap of luxury. Go wild and check out the 25 - we lived on ours for months at a time.

Good luck with the decisions. Plenty of sailors here will tell you that you are looking in the right direction.

Jim
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