Captain's license

[ken35216]

I've always wanted to get a OUPV (6 PAC) license. They have a school the first two weekends in December near me and I think I'm going to go.

When I retire in a couple of years it might be nice to have in case I fall into a "jobby" (part job part hobby that you do in retirement).

Thoughts?

I don't see a downside besides the expense as I'm sure I'd learn a ton!

[thataway]

You will certainly learn a lot. Generally the classes are good. But all stuff which is in the books/practice exams. The class makes you focus and study. Now days, you have to get the drug testing, and perhaps the TWIC card, if you really want to get the license. (Very few ports have the card readers, and 6 pack charters would rarely require the card...but read up on it..)

One potential disadvantage which has been cited many times, including by some attorneys, is that you will be held to a higher standard if you are involved in an accident in any boat. As you probably know, in such incidents, "fault" is usually apportioned to all parties in some proportion...I don't think that is a good reason not to take the class and get the license.

I like to tell the story of one of my neighbors years ago, who wanted to do 6 pack cruises on his trawler. He had zero "sea" time--maybe 50 hours on the bayou and Pensacola bay. He proudly got his new certificate which restricted his operations to a very specific geographic area. He never did book a single charter, and still was one of the most dangerous operators in the area. Unfortunately taking the passing the class did not improve his judgement!

[hardee]

Ken,

This is an area I really considered too, and for some of the same reasons. Not so much for the job possibility as the educational experience. I found there may also be a discount on your boat insurance, until you start using it for hire. For me, it came down to the cost vs financial benefit, and it just didn't pencil out. There are several folks here who are licensed captains and they may have a different view. Obviously YMMV.

Harvey
SleepyC

[ken35216]

[ken35216]

[thataway]

[hardee]

I looked at the annual upkeep fees, for health eval, TWIC, and training updates. I still like the idea but was not willing to spend the $$$ or due the time yet. The class here is 3 nights a week, with 4 hour classes and a minimum of 4 hours of homework between classes. The fee here was $1500 for the classes and then additional for the MD physical and certificate, TWIC (Transportation Workers Identification Card) - another government agency, and it was an hour drive each way. It would have saved me about $50 a year on my boat insurance.

I might still consider it, but for this first year of retirement, I was not home enough to work in the class time which was for 10 weeks IIRC.

I was interested in the Intercoastal ticket, and needed more time west of the demarcation line also.

Harvey
SleepyC

[AstoriaDave]

There are hundreds of six pack guides who work the lower Columbia River, primarily for salmon, some for catch and release sturgeon. At the height of the season, the river is paved with them, most in open aluminum sleds, with a handful of sports, clad in heavy rain gear. Some of the guides also work other sports fisheries. A few make very good money, consistently. The bulk are pretty much break even operations, plus or minus, and the guides work hard, when they work. A lot have real jobs in Portland or elsewhere, and the six pack license is a way to have fun and get their boat expenses listed as a writeoff. I suspect fewer than fifty are locals.

A few unscrupulous individuals try to skate on the license, informing clients, as they leave the ramp, that they should tell the cops they are "friends" of the operator.

It is a mad scene.

[JamesTXSD]

Hi Ken,

I started out with an OUPV before we ever bought the C-Dory, and later (with more sea time) upgraded to a Master License; currently, I have a 100 Ton Master Lic.

I see no downside to taking the class and getting your license; be sure you have the appropriate sea time (360 days) for the OUPV. When I took that class, almost everyone in the class was looking to do fishing charters. The OUPV and a state guide license are required in our state for fishing charters (Texas).

You will learn a lot in the class. Well, the downside will be that you will see all the stupid and dangerous things the "average boater" (none of those here - Bill and Mike screen participants) does. You will learn about Rules of the Road, what all those lights and daymarks really mean, safety procedures, proper VHF usage, and so much more - definitely no real downside.

The TWIC credential is required for the first license application, but not necessary after that... it really didn't pan out the way it was originally presented. Besides the physical, you will need references, a background check, and fingerprints. From what the instructor in my original class told us, over half the people who start out to get a license don't follow through with all the other necessary stuff.

Some other considerations once you have the license: if you intend to use your boat for any commercial purposes, you need to make sure your insurer is aware of that - it will cost you more and you will want higher limits for the added liability. While the Coast Guard doesn't do an annual inspection on OUPV boats like they do larger license operators, you will need to have life jackets (more than the cheapie ones that come in a 4 pack) and all the necessary USCG safety equipment.

For the past 8 years, I have been driving commercial excursion boats... it will change your perspective on recreational boating. You are no longer on your own schedule. You can say you will do it on your own terms, but (especially early on) you will want to take any charter/job you can. I've visited with some of the fishing charter guys down here (definitely not what I do)... they still love to fish, but now they go regardless of the weather, what game is on TV, etc, etc. You are responsible for the lives of those onboard, even if they don't take proper precautions. Some serious considerations.

For the record, I never used my boat for any charter work. That opens up other issues: are you going to have people on the boat who get seasick but don't mention that ahead of time? Muddy boots. Screaming kids. People who book, but don't show up (and don't cancel). People who are pissed because the fish aren't biting. People who are late (and they are frequently late). People who aren't careful with your boat. People who stuff half a roll of toilet paper down the head (and guess who gets to unclog it?).

My wife calls the seasonal work we've done our "fun summer jobs." We both work darn hard... someone has to work hard for other people to have fun. After a long season of driving boats, we are both ready to do something else with our free time.

We may be done boat cruising (for now), but the cruising we did with Wild Blue is some of our favorite memories. I have had some truly memorable times on the commercial boats, but it isn't the same. Put a dollar sign and a schedule on it, and it changes things. I am glad to have both experiences.

I don't mean any of the above to try to dissuade you in any way from pursuing a license. Just tossing out some considerations.

Take the class. You can always decide down the road (waterway?) what you want to do (if anything) with it. Great information.

Best wishes,
Jim

[Kushtaka]

I just want to point out one or two things.

I work on boats as much as I want to (for the most part), and have a team of others who do the same. We don't have captains licenses, but we are able to work on the water, are all excellent boat operators, instructors, etc. We are frequently looking for temporary/seasonal employees who have a high degree of skill and experience operating boats, and often find these people without a captains license. We also find plenty of license holders who haven't a clue, and shouldn't be on the water.

James' points below should be well heeded. Once you hang up a shingle it's pretty hard to run a charter operation casually. It's a ton of work, especially for the captain. Adding to his list of headaches, remember that you will need crew, and your crew will want to work. If you don't keep at it, you will not retain a good crew, and if you don't have a consistent, happy, and capable crew, your work gets exponentially harder.

So it's a catch 22. You need to push it to get and keep a good solid crew that will then make your work easier. Almost every decent charter captain I know who gave it up simply takes folks out when they feel like it, and basically get them to pay for gas and bait. No other $$ changes hands, so it's just some friends going out fishing. The former capt. gets to keep his boat and use it without going broke paying for fuel and bait, and the passengers get a screaming deal, but might have to be flexible enough to wait for a decent weather window. People who do this seem the most content to me.

There is some considerable expense to maintaining a license. Drug testing for one, especially if you are not employed, can cost you. If you are employed by an entity that participates in approved drug tests (usually random DOT tests) you can simply get a letter from your employer. If not that cost falls to you. As a "Jobbiest" you certainly enter the realm of the latter. The requirements for safety gear are more stringent on a charter vessel, which is another cost.

Finally, I think this was mentioned, but simply holding the license can make your life tough if you are involved in an incident at sea, even if you are just out having fun and it was someone else being stupid that caused the incident. You will be held to a higher standard and scrutinized.

There is plenty to be learned in the class, but not necessary to obtain the license. You just need to take the test and pass. I believe a passing grade in many classes counts as a passed test, but not all.

If there are captains you like a lot in your area you might do as well as a deckhand. That can be a fun job, and certainly less stressful than being a captain.

That said, go for it! Nothing like doing what you want to do, and you may be able to do it all just exactly as you want to do it. You won't know until you try, and if you try, at least you'll know! Every situation is different, and if it doesn't end up the way you want it to, you can stop whenever you want! That's the beauty of being the captain!

[Foggy]

I have 5 reasons for not wanting any USCG license.

1. As Bob said, if you have a problem, you are held to a higher standard.
If the problem involves anyone under your command being seriously injured
or dies, you will be put under the microscope and then grilled to the point
you will wish you were never born.

2. and 3. I know 2 guys who have a 6 Pk license who I would not go boating
with any further away from shore than I could walk back to.

4. Sticky red tape and hoops to jump through.

5. You don't need a license to do anything you want on the water except
take passengers for hire.

Aye.

[flagold]

I was 100 ton master in the late 80s/90s. Ran 4 boats, 2 Whaler 21 Walkarounds, a Montauk and a 13 Dauntless (still have). The points above are valid. I let my license go when I switched to private travels as the grey areas can be a little grey. Love the knowledge - not so much the liability issues.

[hardee]

Foggy Said:

[Foggy]

I'm all for learning more, especially when it's about something I love to do.

Boasting more credentials, more plaques on your wall, # of degrees in higher
education, all the places you've travelled, how many medals you have, etc is
a sign of self-importance I don't pay mind to.

Aye.
Grandma used to say, "In the end, humility wins."

[JamesTXSD]

If you have a "problem"/accident/incident, the Coast Guard is going to assign a percentage of blame. Saying "I didn't know that because I am not a professional captain..." isn't going to get you out of being cited.

There are some situations where it is good to know the credentials of the person who has your welfare in his/her hands: airline pilot, flight instructor, boat captain, electrician, plumber, brain surgeon... shall I go on?

I've seen some less than competent boat captains, but they are generally a "one-person operation"/owner." A company that hires boat captains isn't going to keep someone around who can't perform to standards - too much liability. On the other hand, I have seen scads of boat operators who clearly do not have an understanding of the "Rules" nor understand safe operations, and are clearly not a license holder. I have also run into those who have a fresh license who think they know it all... I learn something every time I go out in a boat. That said, it is a guarantee you will know more after completing the class than you knew before... regardless of whether you go on to get the license or not.

Yes, there is "red tape"... as you would expect in any licensing endeavor. It is part of the process, and the standards have been set for a purpose. Just like the random drug testing.

Some states require boat operators have a card that shows they passed a "minimum knowledge" test. No different from getting a learner's permit to drive a car... so there may be a test one has to pass before driving a boat, depending on your state. Certainly not the same thing as a Captain's License. But, it is a start. I know this is controversial, but I think there should be a boat operator's license.l

There is no practical test (to show your competency handling a boat on the water) for an OUPV license. For the higher licenses, you may be the Master when the Coast Guard does their annual inspections, and they will be evaluating you as well as the equipment. For one job, I had to pass Department of Interior written, oral, and practical (several hours on the water) tests... who knew you'd have to be able to tie a bowline behind your back, with your body in the loop? In 20 seconds. Demonstrate how to get someone (unconscious) out of the water on a boat with a tall freeboard. I don't have a plaque on the wall that shows that, but I do have the experience and have proven my competence.

Who do you want driving the boat you are on when conditions get "unusual"... a licensed captain, or someone's humble grandparent who freely doles out advice (unlicensed)?

Truly, no downside to pursuing education. IF having a license means you are held to a higher standard, I don't see that as a downside, either. Let's all be safe out there.

Jim