PC based navigation vs Apps vs Marine electronics

[Aurelia]

I didn't want to step on the good discussion happening on the other thread so I will start a new one and share some thoughts. These are just thoughts of a person who is always weighing options and making moves in the pursuit of fun. Take offense if you like, but I am not aiming for it.

Starting with where that discussion is....The suggestion of a backup laptop to use if the main stops working:

Add in a backup laptop and the "deal" isn't feeling as sweet anymore. I would like to compare some system costs but I know one factor will play out again and again. Screen size. How big do you really need?

Also, there are mixed feelings about tearing into a boat to update the equipment and related costs and questions. This is normal, and it can be solved just like we do with outboards, or gas tanks, or steering hardware.

Those items have something in common with Navigation gear in my opinion.

I see navigation equipment (especially at higher speeds) to be safety equipment, and I won't simply bow to cost or pretend it's a convenience that old timers sailed oceans without and didn't have "any" problems. Just because a person survives something, doesn't make it a good idea or even an acceptable one for me. So your nav screen freezes while you transit a winding narrow rocky passage and how much could that cost you....

You wouldn't cover your roof with tarps from now on because you were lacking the skills of a roofer. That could work in some scenarios and maybe even for a long time but still, would you live with it?

If you are relying on one piece of nav gear but carry some backup device; When did you last run it? Is it updated? Are you familiar with it? Can you and your first mate use it affectively? Would you really be happy using it for the last 20 days of a 30 day trip if the primary goes out?

Nearly 16 years of supporting windows machines in the quadruple digits has taught me as much about vulnerabilities as it has strengths. I am also the primary support engineer for ruggedized field devices (like marine elect) and the stability of those over PCs is at least 500 to 1 for issues. They are built different to perform a different job, and the firmware or software that's runs them, has very few dynamic elements so change is very controlled.

The takeover of boat navigation by mobile devices is just now mature enough that I am starting to meet people who are circling back, after tiring of the lacking device integration and buying back into dedicated devices purely for stability and to avoid ongoing troubleshooting tasks.

If like Sam (Nordic Tug), a person has the space on board in a protected environment to mount a large screen, plus the ability to keep a dedicated (software stabilized) laptop or PC, plus (this is important) interest enough in tech to not mind the tuning and configuring necessary to keep it running nicely, it could be a great idea!

Just a large screen will be enough to hook a person into any system, and the simple fact that big is cheap in the PC environment, makes the PC environment seem more appealing. But lets not confuse appealing with superior. The ability to use a machine you already own to perform another needed function is also very appealing and that is why so many of us have experience with a crummy stove that also makes a mediocre heater. Or why we use smart phones for everything whether it works well or not.

I explore, configure, and manage hardware and software 40 hours a week and I am not interested in equipment on our boat that needs the babysitting. I simply know it would detract from our experience and that is a real risk with any system that is not working well on a boat.

I would ask yourselves a question if you have old nav gear on your boat. How many computers, phones, TVs, and associated goodies have you upgraded during the life of your current boat equipment. Why are you treating the boat differently? I consider the time on our boat to be very valuable and I am happy to invest in that experience just I as would invest in a new seat for my motorcycle, or into a new backpack for that hiking trip of a lifetime. If skimping on things makes you happiest, I promise you are missing the point.

In the end, you get what you pay for and comprising is a risk we all take.

Greg

[ssobol]

[Aurelia]

My reference to risk is not in the safety sense, but in the disappointment sense. Our boats are a compromise and might disappoint an owner trying to win boat races. If winning races was important to the owner's enjoyment, a compromise/slow boat is a risk to that enjoyment.

How many folks have we all met that are unsatisfied with some element of their boat? Does using a boat with personally unsatisfying equipment impact enjoyment of the boat...It sure can. Even the most positive of attitudes is still susceptible to dismay.

Greg

[Will-C]

For me a laptop can do a lot more than be a nav device. I use a newer one which is 4 years old. I have an older one I use as a backup. For me saving routes and changing them is much easier on a laptop. At the end of the day I download pictures on the laptop and answer emails and send pictures. I can look up information on our destination. We just recently visited Seattle by boat and being able check out possible land based tours, ratings and a menus on a possible restaurant is something we enjoy. The bigger screen is nice for older eyes than using a smart phone.
We have a full Garmin Nav system. We use that in conjunction with Coastal Explorer on a laptop. But make no mistake we use the Coastal Explorer for navigating. So if we are navigating and narrow rocky channel all will not be lost. Everyone is different. I think being able to save routes as documents and the versatility of the laptop is what I like. I used Coastal Explorer on a 23' C-Dory and the same computer with Coastal Explorer and USB GPS puck on our R27 Ranger Tug. You have your idea of what is best for you and I have mine. I don't really care if people agree with my choice it's a discussion and all the Coastal Explorer users can't be wrong. But I'm not a software engineer.
D.D.

[NancyandBud]

[localboy]

As of now, we would not get rid of our Garmin unit. Charts, radar, depth, fuel consumption et al is just too valuable on one unit. I could see us using an Ipad as a backup however, as it does things the Garmin can't, like movies, email/web browsing etc.

I'm not a tech nerd. The simpler, the better. Our Garmin has been almost 100% fail safe; almost. It did require a factory re-build after only a year or so after I could not get the software to update. Since then, it has been flawless. Can't say the same for our Wallas.

[20dauntless]

Lots of good points Greg.

In my opinion, the biggest benefits of PC-based navigation have little to do with cost and everything to do with ease of use and cartography. I find planning routes is way easier on the PC running Coastal Explorer than on any MFD. And I've yet to see an MFD that can so easily display multiple types of cartography. One stroke of the keyboard and I can switch from NOAA raster charts to NOAA vector charts to C-Map vector charts...or I can split the screen and view different charts side-by-side. I've found dozens of errors in the C-Map and Navionics charts when I've looked at them next to the government charts.

PC based navigation makes a lot more sense as boats get larger. The environment is typically less marine like, 120-volt power is available 24/7 (I carry a small spare inverter in case the built-in inverter dies, or I could run the genset), and there's more space for electronics.

Getting a PC to work reliably for navigation isn't easy. The nav computer CANNOT be the computer you do everything else on...what happens if you drop it? Or inadvertently download malware? Or download a software update that causes some compatibility issue (and this can happen automatically)?

Here's some good reading about these issues:

http://www.mvtanglewood.com/2013/01/more-on-chart-plotters.html
http://www.mvtanglewood.com/2013/02/chart-plotter-decision-made.html
http://www.mvtanglewood.com/2013/06/building-navigation-computer.html

FWIW, I haven't found MFDs particularly reliable. The Raymarine C80 on the C-Dory has crashed several times, including one incident when I was on the west side of Vancouver Island. It could only be resuscitated by doing a hard reset, losing all my routes and tracks. The Simrad NSS12 on the Nordic Tug has all sorts of software glitches, including not seeing the radar about every fifth time I turn the thing on.

[tpbrady]

Greg,

Because we do extended cruising from April-August, we always have my wife's laptop on board which is our spare. As far as reliability of CE on a Windows machine, the most common cause of a failure is a USB port "crashing". Before USB my original laptop had a true serial port for a GPS interface and I never had a problem with that. Rosepoint is finishing up development of a device called NEMO, that ties to a NMEA 2000 network as well as to a NMEA 0183 network and whose interface to the computer is Ethernet.

Even in my current setup, my Win 10 system only got hung up once this summer due to the USB port and that I believe was due to a failure of my USB hub. I had more failures of my Garmin 4212 (12 at least) when it shut down on its own. I traced that problem to the Sirius/XM module(GXM-52). If you had a weather screen up and left it there for any length of time or did a lot of interactions with the weather screens and then went back to sonar or charts, the 4212 would just shutoff while doing it or just a few minutes later. My dealing with Garmin on that is another matter.

Now, how do you handle that type of failure while underway in a narrow waterway. I always have my Garmin Chartplotter on, but its screen is mainly either displaying a sonar screen or split sonar and radar screen. On my C-Dorys, I had an 11 inch laptop on RAM mount to the left at the helm, and a chartplotter (Lowrance or Raymarine) to the right at the helm or above mounted underneath the shelf. Neither of these approaches blocked the view forward. So while underway, I had immediate access to a backup. From a practical standpoint, I view CE as a backup to my chartplotter. Allowing me to have a dedicated sonar display and chart display. At night, anchor watch is run on the chartplotter and CE is shutdown as the laptop on a boat is a power hog.

The key to stability for CE on Windows is to reboot often, run only one major process, use multiple inputs for GPS (I have two), and use the products that Rosepoint sells or recommends. I generally violate all of those rules at one time or another and still think its a very stable and reliable product.

Tom

[Aurelia]

Good points and I think running multiple devices at once is the easiest way to have your cake and eat it too while dealing with outages. The multiple charts are truly a challenge for many MFDs but some makes are working toward improvements I hear.

I wonder if one of the stick or mini PCs would be a good fit for the Windows Nav software options. The small form factor paired with a small travel keyboard and mouse could be a flexible combo.

https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-Ideacentre-Stick-300-90F2000CUS/dp/B01G729CQW/ref=sr_1_6?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1474594272&sr=1-6&keywords=mini+pc

On the other hand, with wireless features and apps for screen viewing and control of various MFDs, a person could purchase even a smaller one, mount it on the edge of the dash, and mount a big tablet next to for control and viewing on a bigger screen. And because the table is only operating with a simple viewing app, There is less risk to using that device for other purposes while at the dock.

I have never found a need for route planning beyond map surfing with pan functions at the end if the day. I use the Auto guidance feature frequently to see our options while on the move and as an on-the-fly route generator. I have used that function for 6 years now and wish is was on my kayak unit.

There are also apps for route building and wireless transmission options to send those routes to the MFD for the days travels.

Lots of options and Cindie is about ready for an updated tablet for mapping on the boat. The 7 year old nexus is getting slower and slower.

Hard to avoid the march of "progress", and for most part, we enjoy that.

Greg

[thataway]

In the last three days we have seen: 1.) solo Kayaker, 2.) two gals in a canoe, 3.) 6 young folks in two Jersey Pulling boats (Like Whitehalls), all of these are going down the Mississippi from its headwaters to the Gulf of Mexico. Not a single chart plotter, or computer among the bunch!

I know of several boats which have done the "Loop" with just an I pad,or hand held device. (GPS or I phone/android)

Personally I have sailed well over 100,000 miles before chart plotters were available....(did have a Commodore Vic computer on one boat, the other did have a laptop, No GPS or no way to interphase a GPS. I did see a $10,000 Trimble system on a high end Charter boat, in 1993. ($16,500 in todays dollars)

To me dedicated, networked marine instruments make a lot of sense. As Greg, notes they are rugged, reliable, and made for the marine environment. I have not had any problems with Garmin--there was a reason I didn't own Raymarine equiptment for many years--currently they are much better. I did have some issues with Lowarnce when I tried it for a few years, and again they have gotten better.

I have a friend Who owns a multimillion dollar boat, who had developed one of the largest software company--He has computer driven system, and even with his talent, and support, has difficulty making them reliably work 100% of the time. This does not mean that there are not 100's of people who who love CE, or one of the other programs.

Yep, I still carry paper charts, and check my position on them. I do carry one laptop and two I pads, plus a Kindle--but don't use any of them for navigation, except Navionics on the I pad, Garmin on i pad, with Active Captain. As I noted in the other discussion, I fiddled with laptops and various types of programs when we owned a 42 foot trawler. I just found the chart plotter and integrated equipment so much easier to use. Just my experience and viewpoint.

Today, I compared using the i pad, with both Navionics (using the fishing charts, and COE, plus the true Navionics, with the Garmin which is on my chart plotter. The chart plotter was far easier, and to me seemed better. Again, just my opinion.
I want something which I can hit a button or cursor, and bring up what I want immediately--such as the AIS on a tug, or zoom in or out, check out something ahead---I am sure that all of this is just as easy on a laptop...running CE, but you have to integrated various NMEA sentencing senders and receivers.

Routes. For most of the type of boating I am doing currently I don't use auto pilots or routes. I have to keep eyes on the water, and move the wheel reflexively. Logs, weeds, other boats, etc constantly require my attention and deviation from a "point to point" course. Bear in mind, currently I am on the Mississippi River, most of my boating at "home" is on bays with crab pots, many turns, and other traffic.

I did upgrade several years ago, and do so about every 5 years. There have been some huge advancements in radar, fish finder, and even in GPS (using GLASNOS), and 10 hz updates.

If I was going across long stretches of open ocean again, I would have that auto pilot and the routes all set out...so it depends on what type of boating you are doing. If I was don't serious fishing in the PNW or AK, I would be using an autopilot.

As for the "loop"--there is a lot of hand steering. There are a few long stretches, such as Carabell to Tarpon Springs where you can set way points, as well as some of the bays and sounds. (still have to deal with crab traps) Certainly in the PNW we used the auto pilot when crossing large bodies of water, and in some of the reaches; But up there again, we found significant debris in the water.

There are those who argue that having a boat on auto pilot with pre set routes allows one to concentrate more on the water. I wonder if this is really true? Many boats I see, it is often obvious that auto pilot is on, and no-one is looking ahead.

[Will-C]

We don't use our auto pilot to run our routes. We do routes and use the Auto pilot for longer straight stretches because the auto pilot steers straighter than I can. In a beam sea or some waves that hit on the front quarter require constant steering adjustments. In almost all cases I let the auto pilot handle it. The exception would inlets or areas with crazy currents. We can steer around something with our Garmin auto pilot or just put it in standby mode just hit one button and avoid the object.
If your traveling on rivers or familiar waters I wouldn't do routes either.
On our recent trip to the NW I did routing well ahead of getting on the water. We traveled from our start in Bellingham thru the San Juan Islands up thru the Gulf islands and on up to Desolation sound. A side trip to Princess Louisa and on down down to Seattle. I had never been in the NW before so routing made sense to me. We decide where wanted to go then route to all of those places. I have an boat icon on the laptop that shows me on the route. C.E. gives me mileage in between waypoints and the time it will take at our set speed. I have a separate standalone Vesper AIS with it's own screen that lets me see ferries and other boat coming from any direction. We usually run the AIS in harbor mode(targets with in six miles) to limit targets that are far away. On the way to Princess Louisa we could see Sleepy C and how far a head he was of us and his speed on the AIS. Our Garmin 7212 chart plotter either has a full screen chart running which has a data bar that shows depth, the current time, real time fuel usage, and fuel gallons left on board. My wife keeps an eye on things with our older IPAD with a nav app. I'm happy with the way we operate almost never travel in our local waters. For us our needs are different than folks that only travel in their familar local waters. But I'm not trying to convince anyone our way is better. It's just the way we do what we do.
D.D.

[journey on]

The C-Dory is a perfect place for PC-based navigation, since they offer closed cabins. We've had a PC in Journey On since it was new, without any boat-induced problems.

So here's my question:

Why haven't C-Brats started using OpenCpn? Instead, according to recent posts, they seem to prefer Coastal Explorer.

Both are very good, OpenCpn is free and Coastal Explorer costs $300. Both run NOAA charts, or any other you can buy. Both have AIS. Both are similar in operation. OpenCpn has a radar overlay for ethernet based radars.

So let's have the pros and cons.

Boris

[nimrod]

Con - as far as I know, OpenCpn doesn't run Canadian charts.

I do use it simultaneously with my Garmin 740S for cruising my local waters (San Juan's) and like it.

jd

[tpbrady]

I looked at OpenCPN after I had used CE for a couple of years. I think CE was the best $300 I have spent on boat electronics. The ease of use and tight integration of hardware, charts, and data sources compared to OpenCPN is what made me shy away from OpenCPN. It was kind of like my first experience with an Android phone after using an old Motorola phone that used an early Windows telephone OS. The Android phone was too much like anarchy. For example, looking at the OpenCPN website, I was looking for what they supported for NMEA 2000 gateways. The only thing that came up was an Actisense NGW-1 which connects a NMEA 0183 network to a NMEA 2000 network. It won't connect the NMEA data to the OpenCPN computer. You'll need another device to do that. It think if I looked further I might find they supported the NGT-1 which is a NMEA 2000 USB gateway for a computer.

$300 buys a lot of support and integration one on one you may not be able to get on OpenCPN.

Tom

[Larry H]

Another plus for Coastal Explorer is charts updating. Rose Point (who makes CE) has all the NOAA (and their own version of Canadian charts) on their own servers. One click on the update button, and CE goes and gets all the new charts from the Rose Point servers.

CE also uses the Rose Point versions of the Canadian raster and vector charts. These charts cost $99 per year per area to buy and maintain. This is way cheaper than buying Canadian charts from CHS, the Canadian gov chart seller. Once purchased, you get one year of updates, and if you don't renew, the charts are still on your computer and can be used.