Tomcat 255 Steering Trouble

Westie · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:30 pm Post subject: Tomcat 255 Steering Trouble

Hi,
I have noticed that my Sea Star hydraulic steering is starting to act different and want to ask the board for suggestions.

It seems to take more force to turn to port than starboard. I had always assumed this was due to the boat listing slightly to starboard (2006s are not well balanced when tanks are topped off). When not under power or trolling, I don't notice this at all but it seems to be getting worse when cruising.

Last year, when I had stored my boat with the engine up and straight, I noticed that they "gave way" and were both point inwards. I learned how to use the T switch in the starboard rear to reset (or tie) the engines together, back in alignment. I know I lost a little fluid when my buddy attempted to bleed out some air. I now alway put the engines to a size when leaving up.

About every two months, I add a cap full of fluid to the pump just above the main steering wheel. Another assumption I have been making is that this is replacing a small amount that leaks from the cylinoids during temp variation. There is a small stain under them.

Yesterday, we looked behind the panel and found oil but thought it was from overflow when I filled it. We wiped it clean.

I was researching how to bleed this system today, thinking that air was the issue, but I ran across the posting titled "Leaking Helm Pump 2007 TomCat" and I'm now thinking this may be my issue (and the oil yesterday wasn't overflow). In the posting, the term "backing down" is used. What is this term?

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to give some details.

I know I need to inspect the back panel after some use to determine if it is the helm pump seals. Are there any ways to test this better while in the marina? I would prefer to minimize risk of steering failure out on the water!

Also, how challenging is this to replace?

thataway · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:48 pm Post subject:

Backing down: What happened when I backed fairly hard, one the second time we took the boat out--is that the pump seals blew. Telefax put a new pump on a plane at 4 PM in San Jose (?) and it was in Pensacola, and delivered by 10
AM the next day...I put the new pump in, but one of Wefing's techs brought their power bleeding system over and flushed the system.

You can bleed by hand, but a pressure bleeding system is sure a lot easier.

My experience is that the pump seals do leak some (even when they don't blow out). The more strain on them, the more likely to leak--and your comments about putting the engine to one side, or locking it in the middle is spot on.

I assume that you did fill up the reservoir each time you add fluid. Yes, it can leak around the ends of the pistons, as well as the helm.

Do you have counter rotating engines? If not, the right hand props are causing enough torque to be noticeable. Setting the tabs on the engines out a bit more may help that. It is also possible that after almost 10 years, that the pump may need a rebuild.

Are the zero fittings on the outboards being lubed every 50 to 100 hours? This is important. Sometimes salt and grit can build up around the shaft which the steering part of the motors turns on (support tubes).

BrentB · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:09 pm Post subject:

The hoses and or fittings may become loose or split and leak. I just repaired hoses and used 1500 psi hose up from the original 1000.

I feel Uflex ex Uflex. UP-25F and steering ram are better designed. something consider should you need to replace or upgrade

Westie · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:13 pm Post subject:

Bob,
Thanks!!! When I add fluid, I pour fluid until it fills up the reservoir and overflows. I turn the wheel and it pulls in a little of the overflowed fluid into the reservoir. It typically takes about a teaspoon or less.

I put a high powered flashlight on it and looked from the back panel to see if there was a way for the overflow to spill into the back panel. I have always smelled a little steering fluid and assumed it was my overflow wicking around the back where I didn't notice. I didn't see light but glad to hear you think that is a potential.

I do know for sure that the zero fittings have not been lubed for over 300 hours of use and likely longer. I know I'm loosing a little fluid there. I'll look into that ASAP.

If it is the pump seals, could it really blow out? I want to debug the zero fitting and line bleeding before working on the pump seals. Its also prime salmon time here!

I'm not sure if I'm counter rotating. However, this is most noticeable when coming up on plane. I'm thinking it is the reason as any issues with the steering fluid/leaks would not be specific to one side.

Westie · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:19 pm Post subject:

Thanks Brent - the hoses looked pretty good but I'll add that to the list

Bob - What zero fitting lube are you using?

thataway · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:53 pm Post subject:

It appears as if you have 150 Suzuki's from the photos. Most likely they are counter rotating. If the props are opposite then you do.

Darn, spelling correction! Sorry about that.. Zerc fittings on the column of the forward parts of the motor. There is a SS tube attached to the engine bracket, and the engine itself is attached to a sleeve which is around this tube. There are (I believe) two Zerc fittings top and bottom to lube this area which allow rotation of the engines when steering...

thataway · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:58 pm Post subject:

It appears as if you have 150 Suzuki's from the photos. Most likely they are counter rotating. If the props are opposite then you do.

Darn, spelling correction! Sorry about that.. Zerc fittings on the column of the forward parts of the motor. There is a SS tube attached to the engine bracket, and the engine itself is attached to a sleeve which is around this tube. There are (I believe) two Zerc fittings top and bottom to lube this area which allow rotation of the engines when steering...

Yes, in my case, there was fluid all over me and the console when the seals let go. They literally blew out. Probably a manufacturing defect. The pump was sent back to Telefex. I remember several other boats having similar issues in this time period.

There is a lot of torque on the engine pushing them apart when you are going forward, and then put in to reverse and give it a little throttle. I had forgotten a life jacket for one of the guests children--and was only a few hundred feet from the dock, so I was going to back to th dock....It became more interesting, without steering--used the throttles to dock--no problem. Fortunately I had another boa, in the water so we switched boats and went on about our trip (after a quick call to Telefax...got some vice President as he was leaving for the day...Probably speeded things along...Great service!

gulfcoast john · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:59 pm Post subject:

Hi Westie!
(edit...sorry Bob, you were posting while I was thinking, because you can think and post and then edit faster than I can think!)
I also have more resistance turning to port than to stdbd, at least until the engines are both trimmed up pretty far at cruise (3-3.5 of 5, with 5 being 'trailer' position, on my Yamaha gauges). I doubt that has any bearing on your issue.
Google your engine serial numbers on the Suzuki site to see which is your CR engine. It would be close to rigging malpractice to not have one CR engine on a cat with widely spaced engines. Which one is best is hotly debated among experts. Marc at Wefings has posted a well reasoned argument against the convention, or so it seems to me. Mine were rigged by Mobile East Marine for the prior owner the other way (CR port), but I'm very happy with the performance and wouldn't pay to change it.

I never had any spotting or leakage. If a cylinder is oozing, get if fixed, but not as an emergency during your salmon season. Get a Sea-Tow membership. (I'm the only TC255 owner posting who ever admitted to calling Sea-Tow). The expensive power bleeder pumps your dealer has are worth it to farm out. To me, the skillls and tools required just to disassemble and then re-build a cylinder is more than I'm willing to get into at this point in my life. Your experience may be better. Several others with way more experience than I seem to regard it as no big deal.
Bob is referring to the ZERK fittings that shoot grease into the cylinders (much like your wheel bearing grease fittings). I agree with him that at over 10 years these high-pressure, high-demand, high-risk pumps and systems may simply need some repair-or-replace evals by an expert. Funny how we all never expect an under-sink disposer to last 10 years, but we do a complex hydraulic system that lives outside in the elements under MUCH harsher numbers. As I so often say to Eileen in these situations, 'Well honey, if I loved flying antique jet aircraft, instead of the TomCat, just think how much more expensive that pump would be!"
Try it. Hope it works for you.
Happy Boating!
John

thataway · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:51 pm Post subject:

kevin ware · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:24 am Post subject: Tom Cat steering

I see you have had plenty of knowledgeable input on the hydraulic system, but no comment yet on the starboard listing problem. Here is some on both.

Our 2006 TC also leaked hydraulic steering fluid initially, but the problem stopped on its own when we used the system more often. We suspect the seals just dry out when the boat is not used regularly.

We also had the same listing problem with our 2006 TC, and it may have contributed slightly to steering issues.

These boats list to SB primarily because the water tanks, both hot and cold are on that side, with little to balance that weight out on the opposite side. Because of this issue, the new TCs have the water storage on the port side, but moving them over in a completed boat is no easy task.

We fixed the list, and also improved fore and aft weight distribution by moving the house batteries from the stern to the closet in the aft of the cabin on the port side. In the process increasing their size and going to dry cells. We also added a fuel manifold, which enables both engines to run off either tank, if that is needed to achieve further lateral balance.

If you have already moved the batteries, and your boat is still listing to port, take a look under the two round hatches on the top of the engine mount bracket. If they have bad seals, or are not really dogged down, water will leak into usually the port side, since it is a little closer to the water, which makes the list more noticeable, and the steering more difficult. At one point, I found 300 pounds of water hiding there.

Kevin Ware
El Gato Thomas
TC 25.5

journey on · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:26 am Post subject:

The above advice is good and specific to Tomcats. Journey On is a 25 and also has hydraulic steering. I've had to work on it and have some specific advice.

When you fill the hydraulic steering pump all the way up, as the fluid gets warmer it'll expand and leak out at the cap if you've overfilled. Don't overfill.

The seals are easy to replace when you buy the SeaStar replacement kit. Here's a link to the kits available: SeaStar replacement seals. It's a straightforward job; google u-tube to see how it's done.

Bleeding the hydraulic system isn't easy. Dealers have a hydraulic bench they can hook up, but I have a way to bleed SeaStar systems at home. Requires buying a hand pressure bleeder, ~$40.

You may not want to do it yourself, but looking at the links will give you an idea of what's going on.

Boris

Westie · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:44 am Post subject:

Thanks for all the advice! I plan to print this out and bring it to the boat Saturday to debug.

I know the Zerks need to be PM'ed. I'm thinking that is the majority of my issue but will check hoses and seals.

As for SB listing, I have not moved my batteries but that may be a good winter mod.

I'm grateful for all the input.

BTDT · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:16 am Post subject:

FWIW- This solved my helm seeping oil problem:

Sea Stars FAQ page:

Hydraulic Steering Helms

When the weather is sunny and hot Oil leaks out of my fill and vent cap. What is the Cause?

Thermal Expansion. As the temperature increases, air in the reservoir expands forcing oil to leak out of the vent cap. Set oil level to 1/4″ below threads of filler cap.

Westie · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:02 pm Post subject:

I need to order a grease gun for my zerks. What are you guys using?
My local west marine wasn't any help.

gulfcoast john · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:37 pm Post subject:

Westie
My trailer zerks are offset and hard to get a barrel on; this coupler works great but is a bit pricey. The fact that it's an Amazon Best Seller means I'm not the only one frustrated with grease oozing everywhere but where I want it to go in awkward locations.
Westmarine is not a great source of trailer parts or expertise. (However when it's time to replace your wiring harness their Grote Ultimate $200 set is by far the best I've ever used or seen and worth it, but only seen online). Easterntrailer.com is helpful.

https://www.amazon.com/LockNLube-Grease-Gun-Coupler-Lock-/dp/B00H7LPKKU/ref=sr_1_17?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1471993494&sr=1-17&keywords=grease+gun

https://www.amazon.com/Lumax-LX-1152-Deluxe-Pistol-Grease/dp/B000MD4YKM/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1471993494&sr=1-2&keywords=grease+gun

Happy shopping!
John