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Aurelia



Joined: 20 Aug 2009
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City/Region: Gig Harbor
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C-Dory Model: 19 Angler
Vessel Name: Ari
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrentB wrote:
Anyone use NOCO Genius chargers?

https://no.co/products


Yes and I like them very much. No moving parts, smart 8 step charging, many profiles to choose from including pulse desulphation, mode memory so it starts where you left it, and compact/waterproof packaging in both portable and installed versions.

Greg

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the 20 amp Mastervolt, and feel it is a better charger. I use it for 2 or 3 banks. (2 banks for group 31 house and start AGM when I am running the 3rd group 31 for the Dometic Refer and Refer and Freezers--3 banks when normal cruising without the reefer/freezer). This involves removing the + lead from the freezer battery, when using it with the 30 amp dedicated charger.

The Blue Seas is a fantastic unit--and I might have gotten it if it had been available at the time, I put in the Mastervolt.

The issue with "dry mount" and" wet mount" Is a bit more than just location. The "wet mount" are used mostly on small boats, such as center console, and not powerful enough to run the heavy loads which we have in the our C Dory when full time cruising, with heavy current draw, such as refers and freezers. The "wet mount" often fail after a few seasons. I have had every one of the ones which came as OEM equipment on the C Dory fail.

I find that the freezer/refers use about 60 amps a day. (somewhat dependent on ambient temp, extra insulation, shade, evaporative cooling etc) So that means at least 4 hours maybe more for the 20 amp charger. The reason I use a 30 amp dedicated charger for just that battery.

For your use, the Blue Seas 40 amp charger in the long run might not be a bad investment. The reason is that it does charge each battery independently. AGM batteries will accept the faster charge (meaning less generator run time), The better chargers will take into account the higher use demands of the freezer/refrig battery and proportionally charge them. Be cautious of a ACR without a method to shut off during charging.

The Honda Generator only puts out 8 amps 12 volts, and is not going to be a viable battery charging source. You want a group 31 battery for the fridge/freezer. The reason is that you don't want to discharge it more than 50%. You also want to monitor the voltage and amperage draw off that battery. (Consider at the least one of the cheap gauges, such as below:

http://www.amazon.com/6-5-100V-Display-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter/dp/B013PKYILS

There are more expensive meters such as the Victron 702 or the Xantrex Linklite battery meters.

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
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Aurelia



Joined: 20 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob beat me to some of it, I got too distracted by Aven's lego part searches.

If your VSR is dual sense or works in both directions, you could connect a charger to the house and when nearing full it will spill over to the start battery or vice versa. I would connect to the house as primary if that is a direction you think about going. Ask more questions if you go this route.

Your freezer should use about 25 amps in a 24 hour period so that is what you can plan on replacing with running time or generator time when anchoring out. Bob mentions 60ah but I think from his other posts, that is for both of his units running at the same time.

Connecting your generator to your shore cable would charge you up faster than the DC feed if the new charger you install is over 8amps for that bank. Your generator could power an AC charger of significant size so I guess if you want to minimize your generator use you have three basic approaches.

-Run the boat often enough to not need much help from the genset and use the built-in DC charging when needed

-Install a smaller shore power charger to charge and maintain your batteries in storage or while plugged in overnight and use a separate portable charger with more juice and your genset to run shorter and charge big like this example http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SC-10030A-SpeedCharge-Automatic-Maintainer/dp/B001MYWBF0/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1458702275&sr=1-1&keywords=battery+chargers+30+amp+12v

-Install a larger shore power charger and connect to you shorepower cord with the generator when needed to top things up at anchor

I agree that a power monitor or at least a nice digital voltmeter plus knowledge to use it will help you decide when you need charging.

Greg
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The freezer at Lake Powell takes more than a Fridge at Red Bluff Cove AK! My figures of 60 amps a day, were based on an average at Hontoon Island trip. I used 120 amps a day for both Fridge and freezer--and this was more when the weather was warm than cold--the freezer was kept at 4 degrees, the Fridge at 35 degrees. Obviously your usage will vary. The ARB's uses slightly less than the similar size domestic.

I use the West Marine, external charger, since I don't like non marine stuff on the boat. Mine is a slightly older model than this one, and allows for temp. compensation of the AGM battery. I am told that this current one does the temp automatically, yet no temp sensor visible?

West external charger

With the Honda 150 and 40 amp charger you are far better off than the 17 amp--about 12 amp available, with the Honda 90!
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journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Journey On, the refrige runs at about a 50% duty cycle. That will vary if we're in a hot or cold place (Great Lakes or Powell River in September.) It takes 6 amps to run it. That figures out to 3X24=72 amp hours/day.

A Group 31 is nominally rated at 100 amp-hrs. So if you run the refrige ONLY you are depleting the battery past the 50% limit. One needs to either get a bigger battery bank or recharge the batteries twice/day. I have a golf cart battery bank to supply the "at anchor" needs. Or you can get a more efficient refrig, though I'd look at any less than 60 amp-hrs with suspicion.

I have a Honda 1000 which I use to recharge the batteries through a 40 amp Xantex charger. It works great, because lead-acid batteries have a steep recharge current (amps) drop off. It'll start at 20 amps and rapidly drop down to 10 amps and then 5. The Honda is about 15 years old now, still runs great; don't get a Chinese copy.

So, in summary, a 20 amp charger with a Honda 1000 will work just fine.

There are also combination chargers-inverters. That way you only have to find space for 1 unit.

Boris
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Aurelia



Joined: 20 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a recent thread about freezers and the 50qt ARB unit, Sunbeam said it was drawing 25-35 amp hours per day. In the same thread Bob posted the following,

"We find that 30 amp hours is a good average for our dometics over a 24 hour period. We use one as a freezer and the other as a refrigerator. We use about 30 amps each 12 hours"

In my own testing, I am finding we can create and maintain ice with our Engle freezer using 30amp hours per day.

Boris is using more power due to the draw of the built-in refer on the 25 but based on experience of others and my own, I think saying anything under 60 amp hours is suspicious is missing the facts.

Based on some real use by some of us Brats, it looks like that number would be closer to 30.

Bob, did your units really double their draw from 30-60ah each from one trip to another? That seems like a pretty big jump.

Greg
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bob, did your units really double their draw from 30-60ah each from one trip to another? That seems like a pretty big jump.


A lot depends on the ambient temp and depth of the freezer temperature. I had the freezer at 4 degrees on this last trip. I was running both off the same group 31 AGM battery (110 amp hours) with recharge 2 x a day. Powell runs in the 90's to 100's in the day. Also I did not use my extra insulation on the freezer (external 1/2' foil covered foam) This is why there are many variables. Granted that the built in refers are not as well insulated as the chest types. The Domestic tend to use a bit more than the ARB's

I was also more accurately measuring the amp draw, as well as the voltage on this last trip with the meter dedicated to these units. The AGM battery has a better acceptance rate than a flooded lead acid battery. I find that with my charger I run at 30 to 31 amps for an hour, in the bulk phase, then the charger begins to taper down. I usually shut down the generator when the amp meter is reading 3 to 6 amps. This is still not thru the entire absorption phase. My fear is with many 20 amp chargers, especially if they are not able to put the entire 20 amps into the refer battery, that the battery may be chronically under charged.

With the larger engine alternator, it may definitely require less generator time.

With my Honda EU 1000, when I first start up, and the charger is running at 31 amps, I cannot run anything else on the generator. Later I can add the Torqeedo and then the house 20 amp Mastervolt.

West marine 30 amp portable charger I have an older version of this same charger. I have not tried this one personally, but know two other C Dory owners who have, and I have watched it in action--seems to be similar. Watch battery temperature.
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BrentB



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have any experience or comments on Noco Genius battery chargers? I installed two of Genius Gen 2 this week and thought to bring up this post again for comments.

I bought this model


https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GEN2-Waterproof-Battery-Charger/dp/B003JSJS5I

Thanks

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brent, my 25 came with what I believe is the same model you bought. I didn't know much about them, so did a little reading, and decided to keep it--if it failed, I would go to the Mastervolt, or Victron. I monitor it with a battery monitor (voltage, amps in and amps out, state of charge).

The battery charger does what it says. It charges the battery--at up to 10 amps per battery. It then floats, and droops off for a few hours. If any load, comes back on. If the battery voltage is 12;7, it comes on for a few minutes at 13.3 and then drops back off.

I am very happy with it. I happen to be using the flooded lead acid batteries which came with the boat. I did run the refer and freezer chests on the system, before getting the LiFePO4 batteries, inverter/Charger and engine B to B charger. It handled the lead of the refer/freezer well enough.
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BrentB



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks , Bob

Any recommendations on a simple and practical meter?
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colbysmith



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just recently installed the Victron 712 battery monitor, and like it. Colby
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ssobol



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

colbysmith wrote:
I just recently installed the Victron 712 battery monitor, and like it. Colby


I have the Victrom 602 and it is ok. It calculates the battery state of charge based on what it thinks the current rate has been. I find that my meter will often show a low + or - current flow with the batteries off (only the bilge pump is directly connected to the battery and I know when that is on).

For example, I may find it with a small negative current with the battery off and no charger on. So I'll zero it out. Then I'll come back later and it'll show a small positive current, again with the battery off and no charger on. So, I'll zero it again. Then later I'll again find it with a small negative current flow.

So I take what it says with a grain of salt, especially if the things have been left alone for awhile (low indicated currents x long time = dubious battery readings). If I am actively using the boat, then errors in the current flow and SOC don't have time to build up to large erroneous readings. If the boat is in storage for awhile (e.g. weeks between uses) I don't believe the SOC reading until after I charge the batteries again.

Having a battery monitor is like having a fuel flow meter. After you use it a few times, you don't need it anymore.
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Sea Wolf



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I adapted a Vectron 40 amp automotive battery charger to my CD-22 when I modified the electrical system to use four Group 27 deep cycle marine flooded lead-acid batteries to be able to use a anti-ventilation plate mounted trolling motor for slow trout trolling.

One of the several features it had that you usually don't find on marine battery chargers was an anti-sulfation cycle. The charger applies high frequency alternating current to the battery to dissolve sulfur compounds that accumulate on the plates as batteries age, especially when left not fully charged.* I didn't conduct any scientific tests, but it sure seemed to extend the life of the batteries when used once a month or so in addition to the regular charging cycles.

The charger also would test the motor's alternator output and do a couple of other tests on batteries.

Just another thing to think about! Wink

*******************************************************************

*Sulfation: What is it and How to Avoid it? - crownbattery.com

www.crownbattery.com/news/sulfation-and-battery-maintenance] https://www.crownbattery.com/news/sulfation-and-battery-maintenance

"While there are anti-sulfation devices available that will apply pulses to battery terminals to prevent and reverse sulfation on a healthy battery, they will not reverse the damage completely and are not always recommended. Sulfation is the number one reason you should not store your battery with an empty charge."

******************************************************************

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up

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hardee



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The anti-sulfation cycle is why I use the BatteryMinder brand chargers when my boat is in the barn. I rarely use a charger at the docks. Not sure how much I trust the old Guest 5/5/10 that came with the boat. The one good thing about it is that it is water p[roof and can live under the splash-well. Only 1 LED there and it shows green if it is charging.

I have been looking at a Blues Seas, but most of their chargers are BIG for a 22 that has such limited space, and they need to be mounted vertically. They have a new one that just came out smaller, and 20Amp output. Here is the link:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7608/20A_BatteryLink_Charger_%5BNorth_America%5D

And here is the link to the "Sales Page" from Blue Seas:

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/sales_sheets/980028820.pdf

It is about half the weight, (6.75#) and is IP67 water proof, so should be able to be mounted under the splash well, (at least I have not found any place that contradicts that).

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


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thataway



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The charger that Harvey mentions has a combiner built in--so that the batteries are charged from the start battery, without the need for VSR or Combiner.

Quote:
Having a battery monitor is like having a fuel flow meter. After you use it a few times, you don't need it anymore.


I don't agree 100% with this. The reason is if you have refrigeration, or other variable loads, such as a diesel powered heater, you do not know exactly how much power had been used. (I also have found fuel flow meters very helpful as to the amount used in the specific conditions, including weather, attitude of boat, and loading--especially when making long runs close to the fuel capacity--such as in AK. Many fuel flow systems are accurate enough that you can predict how much fuel you will need at the next fuel dock.

Also be cautious about " parasitic draw" from memories in electronics--such as the station memory in a stereo. Some are wired around the battery cut off switch.

I have been using the Victron and similar battery monitors for a long time--(used separate volt and amp meters before these came along). They not only manage the power, but also help to keep from over discharging the battery banks.

New on the horizon is the Balmar SG200. This combines the "Smart Gauge, which just used battery voltage, with a shunt--in fact it has previsions for using up to 32 shunts for multiple battery banks... The cost is less than the Smart Gauge. @ $220

Another option from Blue Seas is the multi function meter 1850 which will be available in July 2019:

Quote:
DC System Monitoring (up to two batteries)
One input monitors the DC voltage, state-of-charge, current for one battery bank and another input monitors the voltage of an additional battery bank. Alarms include high and low voltage, high current, and low battery.
AC System Monitoring
The VSM monitors a single AC voltage, current, and frequency. Alarms include high and low voltage, high current, and high and low frequency.
Bilge & Tank Monitoring
The VSM has two inputs that can be configured as a bilge or tank monitor. When configured as a bilge input, monitoring functions include pump active, cycle count in the last 24-hours, average cycles in a typical 24-hour period, and total cycles. High alarms can be set for both the minutes of run time in the last hour as well as the number or cycle counts in the last 24-hours. When configured as a tank input, tank status can be represented in both capacity (gallons or liters) or as a percentage of capacity. Custom tank shapes can be auto-calibrated or programmed. Both high and low level alarms can be set for all tanks.


NMEA 2000 certified and uses standard connectors. This allows a single network backbone to be installed for multiple NMEA 2000 devices. The m2 VSM can sahre certain monitoring fuctions with other NMEA 2000 compliant screens, such as CZone Displays Touch 5 & Touch 10.


The problem is that we don't know the price of this unit yet.
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