Backup GPS or smart phone acceptable?

williwaw · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:31 am Post subject:

Location services in mobile phones was really driven by problems when calling 911 as people often didn't know exactly where they were. With landline phones they knew your address but that all changed when we took our phones with us.

The requirement didn't specify a GPS chipset but it turns out cell tower triangulation is problematic so when chipset prices went down the phone vendors just started including them with the devices.

Aurelia · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:02 am Post subject:

As of February this year, the FCC requires this from your phone/carrier combo:

The new rules will require wireless telecom companies, referred to in FCC terms as commercial mobile radio service (CMRS) providers, to ensure “dispatchable location” or x/y location within 50 meters can be provided to 911 call centers, known as public safety answering points (PSAPs), within 30 seconds, regardless of indoor or outdoor location. Dispatchable location means the street address of the calling party, plus additional information such as suite, apartment, or similar information necessary to adequately identify the location of the calling party.

Phones are not explicitly required to have GPS hardware built in but it would be pretty hard to find a newer model without the feature due to app reliance and other customer factors.

Harvey, if you had a Droid Max then you did have a GPS phone likely running in a location mode which led you to believe otherwise. Here is the specs for that phone.

Comms
WLAN - Wi-Fi 802.11 a/b/g/n/ac, dual-band, hotspot, DLNA
Bluetooth - v4.0, A2DP, EDR, LE
GPS - Yes, with A-GPS, GLONASS
NFC - Yes
Radio - No
USB - microUSB v2.0

Phones of course can use GPS, tower triangulation, and WIFI location as a complete source group of location data and may juggle the inputs based on how you have it configured or how the phone is simply programmed to go about that task. The increased user control of GPS hardware functionality is a more recent development across more phone platforms and is driven by folks like us using apps for disconnected navigation tasks.

Tablets, DO NOT have the save E911 location requirements largely because they are not making 911 calls so the builders can go a little more lax on the GPS hardware inclusion which is why you can still find tablets without GPS hardware onboard with relative ease. Check the spec sheet and/or dig through the menus to find it yourself.

Alright, back to backups in the next post,

Greg

Aurelia · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:36 am Post subject:

We run Navionics (have tested others) on a couple of Samsung phones plus a google tablet in disconnected modes but we also use a couple Garmin 78 GPS units as well.

The important differences between a phone/tablet and the above mentioned Garmin GPS, at least as I see them with my experience using both.

Tablet/phone

- Not typically waterproof or floating WITHOUT a case that usually hinders access or useabliliy in some way
- No waterproof method to keep it connected to power which is needed for long term usage
- Not natively designed for resistance to significant drops and vibration intensities (motorcycle is the worst)
- Touch screens are more challenging if you wear gloves during use (special gloves help a bit)
- Navigation apps are very easy to use

GPSmap 78 series

- 20+ hours of battery life on common consumer batteries
- Features waterproof and highly corrosion resistant power/data connection on back of unit.
- Native mapping functionality with extremely limited vulnerablities to network, operating system, or accessory software instabilities
- Glove friendly interface buttons
- Designed for outdoor navigation (imagine that!)
- Navigation features require slightly more practice to be easy to use when compared to good mobile apps

I have been juggling these devices/uses since they have existed and will give some personal use case examples.

Boating:
Phone - tablet based co-pilot navigation device and loaded on phones for fun and backup to backups
Garmin - running backup whenever the boat runs for zoomed-in, detailed chart view at helm, and low power draw anchor alarm funtion

Hiking:
Phone - navigation in good weather for limited day trip use, picture taking when conditions allow
Garmin - for multi-day trips or bad weather or when my life or others is more tied to the results

Mountaineering:
Phone - picture taking when conditions allow
Garmin - for multi-day trips or bad weather or when my life or others is more tied to the results

Sea Kayaking:
Phone - picture taking when conditions allow
Garmin - always, and in any conditions

Car navigation:
Phone - whenever possible when coverage is available (hopefully in the hands of a non-driver)
Garmin type - when phone has no coverage or I need to run it while driving (takes less focus)

Motorcycle navigation:
Phone - only when parked (rest stop) and as a map/services search tool for finding info when coverage is available
Garmin - at all times when moving or stopped for primary navigation and tracking

Casual - If you do your thing only in nice weather, for short periods, and the reliability of results is not terribly important, use your phone/tablet
Intense - If you do your thing in any weather, for long periods, and the reliablity of results could be a safety factor, use a purpose built device

Hearing the example of using a phone for navigating on a Harley made me chuckle and refers back to the casual example above.

I support people (at work) trying to make one, do the work of the other, and see the failures. Phones and tablets are overall much more capable travel tools, but just like our boats, "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Is a phone for navigation acceptable? The dry protection of our wonderful C-Dory cabins make them pretty darn feasible and acceptable enough for many owners.

But, I still need the master sometimes,

Greg

hardee · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:57 am Post subject:

Greg, Thanks for all the details. If it, (the Motorola Droid Max) had a GPS in it then the phone must not have been set up for it to work, as in roaming off so I wouldn't be using Canadian towers when running around on the fringes. However, that would not have been the case in Colorado and New Mexico, unless the GPS was turned off permanently somehow.

I did multiple trips into the Verizon store and several calls to Motorola tech support with no perceptible change in "GPS" function. Could have something to do with my less than savvy computer skills.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

Kushtaka · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:06 pm Post subject:

My rig consists of a newer plotter/sounder, a slightly older, but still functional and reliable plotter GPS wired, and at least one (but usually two) of the workhorse Garmin GPS76Csx units that have been reliable for ten years. The garmin units have one with nav charts and one with topo maps, so if I go to shore I take the topo, on the water, tend to use the nav.

I have been inherently untrustful of my phone and its ability to be a good GPS, so I started using it exclusively, in waters I knew, and set my other units to a dark screen (combo MFD set to sonar only), periodically checking the phone and tablet against my marine electronics.

The phones and tablets have surprised me in their ability to work well with most of the software available. I tried several apps and found that they were, in some cases, more helpful thank my plotters. There is some stunning bottom detail available on some of the apps out there containing detail missed in marine charts.

For example, with the app "Marine Navigation" I found some very very detailed bottom maps (they offer multiple basemaps, the one I'm refering to is "Ocean Map") that I used to find little tiny holes and trenches to fish that aren't on any other maps I have. Most of these spots were productive, and all small contours and details were verified by the sounder. I was just blown away.

Some thoughts on their application:

Lifeproof cases (floating!) are a great idea.

You will probably have your screen brightness on high all the time, have a proper charger (as in the factory supplied charger) and an adequate power supply to it and keep your unit plugged in any timeit is possible to do so, even if the batteries are full. The GPS and the bright screen will eat up battery so quickly (on some devices the battery will drain with GPS on and a bright screen, even when plugged in) that you will find it draining even when plugged in. If you wait until the battery is low before you plug it in you may end up with a dead unit.

The devices I've used are iPhone 3Gs, 4G, 6s Plus, iPad 2, Air, Samsung Galaxy S5.

The Samsung is also sorta waterproof on its own, or it was.

The newer sounders/plotters are now communicating with devices directly as well. Thus, you may have that redundant functionality built in to your next sounder purchase. I am getting delivery on the smallest WIFI ready Lowrance (HDS7 Gen3) today. I can't wait to see what the ability to use the old ipad/phone in the nav system does. Might be nice!

rogerbum · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject:

thataway · Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject:

Greg, excellent summary!

I phone 5S, both wifi and cell phone turned off: accuracy is such that you can tell which room I am in the house--basically within 10 feet or less. Walking to the front door--about 50 feet, shows, the trail, but slightly delayed. Maybe not quite as accurate, and not as fast as my Garmin 1040 xs, but very close.

hardee · Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:48 am Post subject:

JamesTXSD · Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:41 am Post subject:

I think some of the confusion comes from the "A-GPS" feature, which IS a true GPS. The "A" means assisted, which means it uses triangulation from cell towers to speed the acquisition of the satellites. That marketing hype has led a lot of people to believe (incorrectly) that the device doesn't have true GPS.

I recall going round and round with people when the Droid first came out (I bought one the first day they were offered) and with the confusion about that "new iPad thing" and the wifi only version vs the wifi/cellular when the iPad was first offered. Sales people in the Verizon store and the Apple stores didn't know the capability of the devices they were selling. Even though we had been using our iPad far beyond cell coverage as a back up to the chartplotter, we had scores of people (with no hands-on experience) saying that wasn't possible.

Greg's post about the best usage of a phone/tablet vs a stand-alone GPS should be archived - a first rate explanation.

Looking back, the first generation iPads were released in 2010 (wifi only on April 3rd, wifi/3G on April 30th of that year) - just 5 years ago. These devices (and the following Android tablets) changed the way we look at electronic navigation. In 5 short years.

A blog post I made in 2012 about "marine navigation with an iPad" still gets views most days. Route planning with an iPad (or other tablet or smartphone) is so fast and easy... and you can do it from home, or in the cockpit of your boat while taking in the sunset. Using the device as an accurate backup is another means of "having and using available information" while underway.

We have some amazing personal devices that that are also worthy AIDS to navigation. They shouldn't absolve us from maintaining situational awareness. This summer, Joan bought me an Apple Watch. While many think it is a "cute, Dick Tracy kinda toy," it has navigation and communication usefulness. A little "ping" on the wrist lets you know about an upcoming turn. On the whale watch boats, we often get info via text - pretty handy to have that right on your wrist without having to pull out the phone. Check out other uses on Active Captain.

Five years ago, there were a lot of people pooh-poohing the value of a tablet or smartphone onboard. (OK, some still do Wink

) If one has the device, it is worth exploring the function of it for best use.

A friend of ours takes pride in the fact that he "doesn't need a smartphone." But, he regularly relies on his wife to "look that up" on her iPhone. Rolling Eyes

Jim

Maketrax · Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:22 am Post subject:

I'm using an Ipad Air with Navionics all mounted in a Pivot case with suction cup mount. Its fits nicely right beside my HDS7 and all in all I'm very happy with the setup. Its not weatherproof though and it does need to be plugged in and charging for anything more than a few hours of use. Its a great setup though and I find myself using it for nav most of the time with the HDS7 running beside it as backup.

http://www.pivotcase.com/

I do have an older Garmin handheld that I keep in my emergency bag.

ssobol · Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:22 pm Post subject:

I don't think that using a phone/tablet is any different than what some people do in using a laptop as a backup (or even primary) navigation source. A phone or tablet is probably more durable than your average laptop. Pretty much all the cons mentioned for phones/tablets also apply to laptops. Plus laptops don't usually have built in GPS functionality.

You can buy durable laptops (e.g. Panasonic Toughbooks). But for the price of one of those you can probably get a dozen tablets.

Pat Anderson · Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:04 pm Post subject:

Will-C

We still use a laptop running Coastal Explorer software for backup to our Garmin multifunction chart plotter. Free map updates daily from Coastal Explorer, stores routes as windows files. Uses a GPS puck via USB connector which we Velcro on the flat area behind the passenger side front window. Easy route planning using a mouse to point and click. Active Captain embedded. Big screen for cheap. Run power off a 400 watt inverter. Nice if you want to zoom in and out for the bigger picture. Does not need the internet or cell coverage to navigate or to look over a chart.
D.D.