buying a used and older boat

[david bates]

Hello,

I am new and looking for information. I am looking at a 1982 C-Dory. It has an inboard-outboard. Was that normal, or a custom job ? What should I look for before taking the plunge. It was used as a commercial fisher and has been sitting on a trailer for years. Is there anything that might help me determine its health ? What problems are probable for a boat of this age ?
Thank you, David Bates

[C-Hawk]

David,
I would suggest getting in touch with a marine surveyor in your area. If you are serious about the boat, it is well worth the money spent.

[Sea Wolf]

David-

Roger's advice about the using a surveyor if and when you get serious abut the boat is a good one.

My basic gut reaction to an I/O, however, is like this:

1. The I/O uses up a lot of the cockpit space on a boat the size of the 22 or even the 26 or 27 (you don't say which it is).

2. Work on an I/O can be quite expensive, probably more so than on an outboard, and the outboard can be simply be replaced with a new modern 4 stroke engine cheaper than renewing an I/O drive unit and the marinized automotive engine. A 90 hp 4 stoke engine can be had for $8-10 K, where the outdrive and engine will cost at least that much to replace, and will still require using some of the older parts, like the manifolds, water pick-ups, fuel system components, etc.

A few of the older I/O equipped 26/27's have been successfully converted over to outboards, but for a boat that size, a big outboard bracket has to be built, and a 200-225 hp outboard will cost many thousands of dollars more than the 90. You'll also have to plug up the stern and add a new set of controls, gauges, etc. This type of project is not for a person new to boating, generally speaking.

Still, it could be a fun adventure. You need to hear from Haleigh's Comet and Alvig, among others, who have faced this squarely and made this type of decision. Haleigh's Comet was converted over to a 225 hp Honda and bracket by Les at EQ Marine, and Alvig is currently removing his 4 cylinder Volvo to rework himself.

Before you decide to go ahead, develop a very exact budget to be sure it's economically feasible, remembering that boat/marine parts are very expensive and no budget on a project like this can truly anticipate the real final cost due to the unexpected. Joe.

[gljjr]

I just recently purchased a '82 27' with a Volvo AQ175 4.3l V6 I/O. I'm going to be rebuilding the engine myself (I used to be a mechanic so this is just time consuming more than anything). As stated above engine prices are about the same BUT if you are comfortable working on your car engine then working on an I/O's engine is not that big a deal. On the 27 the engine takes up quite a bit of space. However I don't feel it to be wasted space as I plan on using it as a table/seat like I do with the engine cover on my sled.

Since I'm looking into rebuilding the motor I have also looked into a full replacement of the outdrive/engine. For a like powered 4.3l V6 Volvo Penta it would be about $8k-$10k depending on the outdrive and horse power rating. Or I could go with a Kodiak 3 stage jet pump and chev 350 or 4.3l V6 and 2 stage pump for about the same price. Now, if I were going to change the outdrive I would probably go with the jet as the maintenance is better and handling is far superior. In fact, the ONLY reason I'm not going to go with the jet is that the better half won't release enough boat bucks to do it!

BTW: I'm expecting to be able to rebuild my motor for about $1K total. There is no way I could get new power for anywhere close to that. And I could purchase a brand new long block for less than $3k. Sure I'll still have the old Penta 280 outdrive, bit it appears to be in decent condition as there are no clunks when rotating it. Of course I'll know more after pulling the engine.

I'm pretty sure that back then most of the boats were semi custom. Mine is hull #3 and you can tell that they didn't have the sofistication they have now. For instance the engine cover was never truly fit to the back of the boat. It is simply a cover. The fish hold has a 4 inch high cover that you trip over anytime you go in and out of the cabin (these WILL be changed at some point).

As stated above. Get a surveyor to check the boat out. They will do moisture readings to give you an idea of how sound the hull is. They will also give you an idea of the value of the boat to the best of their ability (This is required by a lot of insurance companies before they will even insure it!). The survey on my boat was about $400. Since I purchased it long distance (it was in Pottsborough, Texas and I'm in Fall City, WA) the report and pictures were invaluable for me to decide if I wanted to purchase the boat.

[rogerbum]

Just a quick question out of curiosity. How useful is a moisture reading on a hull if the boat in question has been stored out of water for an extended period of time in a dry climate? Not that this necessarily applies in this case, just wondering. My thought was that a hull might dry out if on blocks in say Texas or Az and give much better moisture reading than it would have if measured just after taking it out of water.

[fiddlersgreen6]

Hi David--Here is my two cents for what it is worth. Having owned about 50 boats over the years, My very worst being a couple of I/O's out of the mid 80's. I have found that the best power for smaller boats is the outboard engine and for larger boats, inboards with a drive shaft and both of these should be WELL established brand names with parts readily avaliable and even then, these can still be a pain at times. There are plenty of good used C-Dorys for sale that have been well loved and not modified or used for a commerical venture and will actually cost you less in the long run. Remember eventually you will want to sell what ever boat you buy, the question is do you want to spend your precious spare time on the water or in your backyard? To me years of storage means years of deterioration for the boat .motor,& trailer. Good luck in what ever you decide but, listen to the good, sound, advise of the other members. Rich

[Sea Wolf]

This discussion is about C-Dorys, and is also about more than C-Dorys.

Hundreds of thousands of used boats (perhaps millions) are available all the time. This discussion goes way beyond our boat into the whole world of boating.

If you choose a boat with a quality hull, you can always repower it and have a good machine. The question is what will the cost be, will it be cost effective, and could you ever recover your investment should you have to do so.

With a quality boat like the C-Dory with an outstanding resale history, you minimize your risks. The worst you can do is put an entire new motor and set of controls on the boat at which time you have a fully updated powerplant. Only any hull and equipment flaws will diminish your investment, and they result from misuse and disuse and should be evident at the time of purchase. Many will choose to buy and older boat up front and simply go ahead and repower to have a fully reliable and modern propulsion system.

If you get into a boat with an I/O set up, you have both units to contend with. They can both be good, or one, or even both can be bad. Due to the temperamental nature of the I/O drives and the fact that you need to reuse parts of the powerplant and support systems, you have two sets of worries to contend with.

So do you want to

1. Buy a good boat with an engine that may be OK, but can be switched out for a known cost (defined risk) if found defective, or

2. Buy a good boat with two separate systems that can both be OK, but either one or both of which can go bad, with a greater probable final cost, and ---

when you consider your resulting resale value, which would you rather be in the position of trying to sell, #1 or #2?

At least that's the way I see it.

(with apologies to any of you with I/O set ups, but this is how I honestly feel)

By the way--Good thinking, Gary! You're the right type of person to attempt this feat and know exactly what you're doing! Nice thoughts on the jet drive system, too, something I hadn't considered. Good luck with your project!!! Keep us posted on the developments.

Fiddlersgreen- Thanks for the comments! Well taken and presented. There are more than a few of us with a distrust of older used I/O units!

Joe.

Joe.

[gljjr]

Joe,

After running a Jet Sled for the last 5 years and then running Rogers beautiful 22 a few times I am truly not looking forward to going back to a prop. The handling of the jet pump (inboard is my only experience here) is so far superior to a prop at slow speeds that I just wish I could afford to have it on the 27.

You see, with a pump you simply turn the wheel the direction you want to move the boat and then feather the reverse bucket back and forth and you can almost move the boat sideways. With a prop you also have to saw the wheel back and forth to do a similar manuever. Much more difficult! Of coure if you have twins you can also do this. But to do that with my boat I would need to go outboards on a bracket. So I would be looking at significantly more expense.

Interestingly enough, my sled uses between 5 nd 8 gph depending on how hard I push it. So, given those numbers I would think I would do just about as well in the C-Dory with a 3 stage V8 setup. The current 4.3l I/O got 5.4 gph according to the log book so it is pretty similar.

As fiddler stated, I/O's can be expensive for the non-mechanical due to the rubber boots and gimbal bearing needing maintenance on a fairly regular basis. The rest of the outdrive is so similar to the lower unit of an outboard that I think it is a wash. Also, for boats that are moored an outboard is better since you can tip them up out of the water where the I/O can't be raised as high.

Roger, I asked the surveyor the same question about the moisture reading on the hull. He said that since the water will get in via osmosis and then combine with the chemicals in the void it can't get out as the molecules are then larger than the hole it got in, so it doesn't matter how long the boat has been dry. You will still see a good reading to determine the condition of the hull. And yes, I was very concerned about that given that my boat was in inside storage for 2 years in Texas.

[Sea Wolf]

Gary-

Very good information and reasoning!

Will an outboard jet maneuver the same or much the same as an inboard?
I haven't had any personal experience with one. Mostly what we seem to hear is that the steering is mushy (!) Fact, Fiction, or Fallacy?

The general consensus is that about 25-30% of the motor's power is lost in the internal friction within the pump, negatively affecting gas mileage. Are there any inaccuracies or qualifications to this?

Some of our prop proponents seem to think jets are just for shallow water applications, and heretical to the Pure C-Dory Doctrine of True Believers.

How well does the jet pick up intake on an outboard function in choppy waters? (Cavitation/ventilation issues?) Is it suitable for open ocean applications?

Does the occasional over-reving experienced by a ventilating/air sucking engine significantly decrease overall engine life?

Can you more or less effectively troll with a jet unit as compared to a prop job?

Are there other pros and/or cons that make the jet and good or bad choice?

Can a good case be made for powering a C-Dory with a jet, even if it's not dictated by the waters in which the boat is used?

This could get interesting and open some new doors to exploration!

Fun to think about!

But TyBoo will want to put my head through a jet pump for raising the issue!!!

Joe.

[Sea Wolf]

Gary-

What do you think of this? (also look at the next photo in the sequence)

http://www.harbercraft.com/Gallery/image.php?photo=10

Here's their homepage to just browse around:

http://www.harbercraft.com

Joe.

[gljjr]

Those are great boats. (here is a picture of the bottom of it http://www.harbercraft.com/Models/26.28.25.02.jpg I looked at them last year but couldn't afford one. They were around $75-$90k depending on options. I also looked at the North River/Almar Seahawk O/S and the offerings by Wooldrige, and Boulton. I really wanted an aluminum boat as they are so easy to take care of. But the price drove me away. You would not believe all the boats I looked at. I drove my wife nuts

I was seriously wishing for a custom built 26' Almar with a deisel running a Hamilton 213 pump or the Kingfisher with a similar power package. Basically it would be a standard North River Seahawk OS but with jet power. But for the price I would have to pay for that I could get a TC255 with all top of the line electronics and a brand new truck!