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Hunkydory



Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2652
City/Region: Cokeville, Wyoming
State or Province: WY
C-Dory Year: 2000
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hunkydory
Photos: Hunkydory-Jay-and-Jolee
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gene Stebbs. wrote:
"This is why on our first outside water exploring of Chichigof Island Southeast, Alaska, we were told by a fisherman who had fished those waters for the previous 40 years not to go there even in wide spaced swells if they were over 10 feet. " Was that up around Cross Sound( if memory serves me correctly) or down at the south end of the island?" We had a couple of rough days trolling with a 30+ ft. boat years ago on the north end when coming out from the narrow slots twixt the islands there, wasn't a lot better farther out. I guess this is called acquiring local knowledge the hard way. To bad about the incident in BC, that boat just "looks" top heavy to me, I was looking at some of the Bayliners with enclosed flybridges and they give me the same feeling. I am sure it is just my perception in both cases.

Gene, the area I was directly referring to starts about 20 miles south of Cross Sound at the open ocean end of Lisianski Strait & continues 9 miles south to Imperial Passage. In this area are scattered islands small enough to let most of the swell continue on with water depths rapidly changing from 15 to 250 feet among them & close by to the open ocean to the west. This area is not necessarily unique, as I believe many areas along the North Pacific Coast to be similar & why if out there running very close to shore or trying to access a inlet or bay in such an area one must be very aware of water depth, current & sea conditions at present & forecast. Though there are many areas like this most are not quite as isolated. If this incident had happened there, the survival of any would be doubtful.

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Jay and Jolee 2000 22 CD cruiser Hunkydory
I will not waste my days in trying to prolong them------Jack London
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I agree with much of the above, the statement:"
Quote:
Most sail boats point nose into the wind"
I would disagree with. (How many times I had wished that was true!--especially where I had to wear ship to come about in one of my boats). Generally sailboats will lie beam to wind, or quartering down wind--a lot depends on hull design. (See Gerr's The Nature of Boats", and Van Dorn"s Oceanography and Seamanship"--books which serious mariners should own and study).

Yes, there are "summation" waves,ut where in sets, one or more will be considerably higher than the average.

But again, we don't have all of the facts. It is entirely possible that something happened aboard the boat to cause its capsize (again assuming that this is what the board of inquiry finds). The skipper and the boat both apparently had 20 years of history in the same area.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
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Home port: Pensacola FL
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Gene Stebbs.



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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City/Region: McMinnville
State or Province: OR
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hunkydory...yeah I have been there a couple of times, the passes north to get the east side of Chichikoff Island are nasty under some condition as I recall, like you said there are many tricky spots in SE AK when the seas meet large tide where it shallows quickly. I found talking with the locals very helpful the first couple of years. Experience is the key to staying off the bottom of the sea.
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chromer



Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 952
City/Region: Anacortes
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 19 Angler
Photos: Checkpoint II
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do they really need to sell liquor on a whale tour? You never know what kind of crowd shows up on these things. I really dont understand why everyone would be crowding around on top deck to see a seal, otter or something like it


https://www.jamies.com/site/whale-watching/tofino-whale-watching-65-cruiser.html

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believe me there are many millions who have never seen a seal, or sea otter in the wild, or other than TV, and they will crowd to one side of the boat! We are just the lucky few who take these things for granted.
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



In this picture there are 8 or 9 individuals visible aboard. The accident happened with 27 on board. Still not near a full load but there is obviously room for all 26 to be up against one rail. That is roughly about 2 tons. Still probably not enough to singularly cause a roll, but .....

On a trip this summer, I was a passenger on a Whale watch boat out of Juneau and with 40 passengers all moving to one side there was a definite list. Because it was a catamaran the crew was comfortable with the situation. The cat would be more stable with that list than a mono hull for sure.

Bob is right, there are plenty of folks who have never seen what marine life we see on a regular basis.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon



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BrentB



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
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City/Region: Greenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Indiana couple was involved in this tragic event and said in the newspaper, it was a rogue wave. Both are now fine but swallowed sea water and diesel fuel and now at their home
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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chromer wrote:
Do they really need to sell liquor on a whale tour? You never know what kind of crowd shows up on these things. I really dont understand why everyone would be crowding around on top deck to see a seal, otter or something like it


Seal and sea lion viewing is popular on our wildlife trips. I have guests specifically ask if we will see them. Stellar Sea Lions especially, because of their size; seals because "they are so cute." The opportunity to see whales is the big draw, but there is a great variety of wildlife that many people have never seen in the wild. The captains will trade information if there is a puffin or a river otter to be seen. Each trip is a unique opportunity.

The company I drive for does not allow alcohol on any public trip. If a party charters the boat, they can purchase a Washington State beverage license so they can have alcohol onboard. It is still up to the captain and crew to maintain safety - on private charters I do make mention of the increased effects of alcohol when on the water. I do not know the regulations regarding this subject in Canada.

On US Coast Guard inspected boats, stability tests determine the number of passengers allowed. Those tests include moving the estimated weight of "passengers" around the boat. Out on the water, I see some boats that heel more than others under the weight of all the passengers on one side.

Seeing the photos of the Leviathan II, it looks like the worst stability situation would be all the passengers aboard on that higher middle deck. Pure speculation, but had the guests been distributed around the boat, it would have helped offset the weight "aloft. It would seem (to me) that more guests (more than the 24 they were carrying), so that there would be some lower and distributed fore and aft, would be more stable. In a stability test, it would be near impossible to anticipate
a half load of guests, all on the highest deck, and an undetected large wave from the other side.

There was one day this summer where all the boats out of Friday Harbor canceled trips - horrible wind. Earlier, there was one trip where we couldn't get to the whales because of nasty conditions where Haro Strait and Juan de Fuca come together. The forecast was for 2 to 3' waves; we were experiencing 5 to 6' waves and worsening conditions. We had two boats out there, and we both made the decision to get back inside (into more protected water) where conditions were better. In nasty conditions, you are on high alert... when conditions are more benign, you have to not let yourself get lulled into not keeping your guard up. (sorry for the double negative)

Anyone who has spent time on the water has had those "Where did that come from??" moments. Even at anchor. Might be unanticipated wake from a passing ship, confused wave patterns coming together, higher than normal tides making for stronger than normal current, a whale surfacing close, debris in the water (really tough to see in close wave conditions), a boat coming up behind you, rapidly changing weather. Closer to shore, you tend to be more "aware," but you simply can't let your guard down.

The difference between driving your own boat and driving an excursion boat are marked. Schedules, expectations, and responsibility... some guests come onboard completely unprepared clothing-wise (even though they were given good information in writing), expecting the trip to be like a Disney ride. It isn't. I am often told, "You have the best job ever," and it can be pretty spectacular; it is also a lot of work and responsibility.

Imagine what the owner and crew of Leviathan II must be going through. The families of those who were lost. The thought of this makes my heart ache.

Try as you might, this situation drives home the fact that the unexpected can happen. Being able to see the wildlife is something that some might take for granted. Most boat crews that I know take the responsibility very serious, and look forward to introducing people to seeing wildlife in their natural habitat; educating the public about the wildlife; hoping that each guest gets to take home a new understanding and some great memories. All in a safe and respectful manner.

My heart sank when I first heard this news. Days later, it is still hard to see/hear it discussed, often by people who just don't understand what can happen on the water. The Pacific Whale Watch community has a fine safety record - hopefully we can learn from this... not just commercial operators, but all those who spend time on the water.

Jim
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim, You are so right. This was hard news for me to hear too. Felt like my heart just drained in an instant. It will be really good to see the final report and hopefully there will be information we can learn from in that. For something going so wrong in an instant, there was a lot that went all right, for that many people in the water, unprepared, to be rescued goes to the credit of those local fisherman community.

On my trip this summer, (N. Vancouver Island) I heard a story about a fishing boat rescue, interestingly, involving a school mate of mine, (from back in grade school), and I found it came from a book, "Dangerous Waters" Wrecks and Rescues off the BC Coast, by Keith Keller. This book has 24 stories about wrecks and rescues, and the one about Bruce and his involvement in a Rescue not far from Winter Harbor is the first one.

I purchased the book, looking to learn from what went wrong, and what could be done differently. In that first story, it goes to keeping a schedule. Remembering Roger (Dreamer's) tag line "The most dangerous thing on a cruising boat is a schedule" and I think it applies to all boats. In the story the issue is fishermen changing locations, and timing.

Jim, I applaud your decision to call off, or reroute to avoid the heavy seas. I would feel safe on your boat anytime.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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Marco Flamingo



Joined: 09 Jul 2015
Posts: 1154
City/Region: Seattle
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C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Limpet
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrentB wrote:
An Indiana couple was involved in this tragic event and said in the newspaper, it was a rogue wave. Both are now fine but swallowed sea water and diesel fuel and now at their home


I wonder what a rogue wave is to a couple from Indiana. Something they read about in a novel? Heard on TV? Or had the vessel entered a rip between two islets when skipper threw the helm hard over to try to get stern to a large wave, only to have the boat list from the prop thrust just in time for a standing wave and the passenger's weight shift knock them over? How would a couple from Indiana describe that? A rogue wave?

I was fishing on the jetty at Westport when some tourists pulled up. A little boy looked out at the waves and asked if it just keeps flushing over and over. Nobody in the party was quite certain how to answer. So I'm leery of the nautical knowledge of tourists.

And I'm a skeptic. I think that there's only one person on board who knows what happened.

Mark
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BrentB



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know

except

ex Governor Whitcomb sailed around the world and The Admiral (my wife) sailed on big boats in all kinds of weather on Lake Michigan, and boating on Charlotte Harbor, Florida and Gulf of Mexico. That is 2 from INdiana who would know! LOL


Last edited by BrentB on Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12632
City/Region: Sequim
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C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sleepy-C
Photos: SleepyC
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we know if the Captain survived? Some how I have not seen that noted, if it has been. I could certainly see the company giving him some protection, if he had.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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Chester



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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City/Region: home
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sold to lovely couple
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some food for thought. More of a a snack, really.

http://blog.tadroberts.ca/2015/10/leviathan-ii-and-stability-issues/#

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/whale-watching-boat-accident-tofino-1.3293618
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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
Do we know if the Captain survived? Some how I have not seen that noted, if it has been. I could certainly see the company giving him some protection, if he had.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon



Yes, all three crew members are among the survivors.
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AstoriaDave



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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State or Province: OR
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chester wrote:
Some food for thought. More of a a snack, really.

http://blog.tadroberts.ca/2015/10/leviathan-ii-and-stability-issues/#

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/whale-watching-boat-accident-tofino-1.3293618
The second link has critical info in it. With no stability testing after modification, it might be difficult for the skipper to know what the tipping point is.

From the beginning, however, this has sounded like a larger swell than typical for that day washed across a shallow area and popped a steep wave, perhaps even a breaker, across the boat. With the passengers crowding the down rail, these factors combined to roll the boat, as it broached.

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