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Blueback



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 235
City/Region: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Island
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: Blueback
Photos: Blueback
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="thataway"]
Lost Petrel wrote:

Company owner stated that the boat did not have time to call a MAYDAY only to shoot off flares.

Rescuers report engine still running when bow up bobbing in the water.

LIfejackets (they had plenty onboard) are not suggested when inside a cabin as it makes it hard to extricate in a flooded condition.


I question #1, especially with A DSC radio--and the vessel should have had DSC. All you have to do, is flip a piece of plastic, and hit the red button---less time and effort than to locate flares, and step outside of the wheel house. Every skipper should have a plan for each emergency. When we had multiple guests aboard for variable lengths of time, in various parts of the world, we had a set of laminated "emergency action" sheets by the companionway. Each new guest was to read these. An EPRIB was by the companionway, and a second also packed in the inflatable. A portable VHF was by the companionway, as well as a couple of good sharp knives. Even in the days before DSC it only took a few seconds to hit the mike on channel 16 (reason one radio should be on channel 16 at all times, and dual radios should be the norm). "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, vessel XXXX, position atXXXX" Another person should be getting the flares, which should be in a handy place--in our case right by the EPRIB.

How would the diesel engine get air when the bow was the only part above water? Only explanation would be the engine in the forepeak--with a very long drive shaft, or hydraulic drive system. Although many diesels will run under water, others now have complicated electronics, and will not function if under water. Other issues concern a fuel on/ off solenoid, which may short out under salt water.
The skipper should always tell passengers where the life jackets are located, some one show hot to put them on.

Again--we have to wait on Transport Canada's Evaluation before we have answers.
You make some experienced observation here Thataway:
I will add a little: First the radio Mayday that never when out! Yes one flip and a push on the red DSC button. "The latest marine radio technology is called Digital Selective Calling (DSC) and will be incorporated into all marine radios. VHF-DSC is an internationally recognized standard that operates on channel 70 of the VHF maritime mobile band. Aside from functioning as a VHF radiotelephone, a VHF-DSC (digital selective calling) radio permits the selective reception of digital calls from other VHF-DSC radios on ships and at Coast Guard centres. The important safety feature of the VHF-DSC radio is that it allows a ship in distress to transmit a rapid distress alert at the push of a button. When connected to a GPS receiver, the distress alert will send an accurate position of the distressed vessel."
However, when a sea hits your vessel, from say the rear quarter, and your looking elsewhere, you could be knocked off your feet and into the water with your passengers. The flares I believe came from the inflatable life boat. Think of this: If that Ahousaht native fisherman had not been looking in the right direction to see the flare, above the headland, there may have been a far higher loss of life. I was a marine engineer in my youth and sailed on many different ships and tug boats. With that back ground I will say, that vessel may have past DOT inspections as seaworthy, but with 3 decks and a shallow draft hull it looked unworthy to me for west coast open ocean conditions. BTW my wife and I were out off Tifino on a whale watching trip this May and our vessel was a 34'er with twin 225 Mercury's. We took some quartering seas 3 metres high and she handled beautifully at planing speed. There is a seamanship phrase to describe how a ship/boat handles the waves-- cranky or tender. The shifting of weight/cargo above or below the CG can change a vessel from cranky (in ballast say) to tender (too much upper deck loading -- IE in this case passengers--??
Yes government inspections and CCG reports will give the final answers. But we C-Brats have years of experience to give some valid observation here without being seen as know it all-s I would hope.

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colbysmith



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 4523
City/Region: Madison
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Traveler
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob, regarding DSC. I don't know what the commercial requirements are, but I doubt most folks know how to use it, or even have it hooked up properly. This past summer I made several attempts to use my DSC to contact other vessels, both commercial freighters and small private yachts. None of which replied back. TO be honest, I don't even know if my radio's DSC is working properly as I have made numerous attempts in the Door County area to send the test code to the USCG, with no response. However, I also sent a test out in Port Washington, and got an immediate reply. (So I think my radio's DSC IS working. But to be sure, I have it at the manufacturer now to be checked out.) Finally, while I got no reply back to my test signal while at the Alton gathering (near St. Louis), I did try using DSC to contact a private yacht at the end of the dock. (In these contacts with other boats, it is in connection with their AIS signals that I'm registering, and then trying to initiate contact using the DSC function. After not getting any response, I actually walked down and spoke to the owners. Come to find out, their radio was alarming (in response to my DSC call), but they didn't know what it was. After some conversation, they offered to "work" with me again on the calls, but were unable to figure it out on their end. (From what I understand, a receiving radio should change to the requested frequency and then the operator can acknowledge and continue the call.) While in the North Channel earlier this summer, I also requested the gentlemen that does the morning broadcast, to announce my MMSI, and ask any fellow boaters to try hailing me by DSC. I did not receive any calls.... Anyway, my point is, I question how many even know how to use their DSC? And it only works if it's connected to an external GPS, or has it's own GPS, to transmit location. Ok, sorry about getting off subject a bit. Think the captain did the right thing in firing off a flare! Colby
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Sunbeam



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
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C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had read the same thing as Blueback (although of course who knows what really happened at this point), which is that the flares were sent up from a lifeboat, not from the mothership. This could potentially explain why flares and not some other method of signaling.
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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City/Region: Kenmore
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Meant to be
Photos: SeaDNA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A newer news story.
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C-Val



Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 296
City/Region: White Rock
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 1988
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
Vessel Name: Seaduced
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine there could be lawsuits coming in future days for whatever reason.

It makes me wonder as a boat owner who takes guests out periodically, am I putting myself at risk by being nice to my friends?
Is there special insurance required if something goes wrong?

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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Val wrote:
I imagine there could be lawsuits coming in future days for whatever reason.

It makes me wonder as a boat owner who takes guests out periodically, am I putting myself at risk by being nice to my friends?
Is there special insurance required if something goes wrong?


Yes, if you take guests on your boat, you are opening up yourself to risk. Just as if you gave a friend a ride in your car. Or host a party in your back yard. Insurance for commercial operators isn't inexpensive. Consider the number of passengers, the number of trips (in all kinds of weather) and the exposure is much greater.

Incidents like this are rare; the whale watch industry has an impressive safety record. As a whale watch captain, I know how much we train, and the emphasis our particular company puts on safe operation.

Conditions in the PNW can be harsh, even on the nicest days. Sudden immersion in cold water is an immediate life-threatening situation.

You cannot let your guard down. Even in wildlife viewing situations, you have to constantly keep your head on a swivel. Many times, I have turned the boat away from the wildlife to put the bow into approaching waves or wake. You have to know what is happening with guests everywhere on the boat. We depend on regular communication with crew.

Tragic, sad situation.

Jim
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Chester



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1176
City/Region: home
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sold to lovely couple
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TSB report is in.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/tofino-whale-watching-accident-investigation-1.3291530
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Sunbeam



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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C-Dory Year: 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting article, thanks for the link. I did note that it says it is "preliminary information" (I had wondered how a report could come out so quickly).
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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City/Region: Kenmore
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2008
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Vessel Name: Meant to be
Photos: SeaDNA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a link to the Transportation Safety Board's preliminary report.

Here's a link to the 1998 report of the swamping of a different boat "Ocean Thunder" from the same company. While the boat in the early incident is a very different kind of vessel and it apparently wasn't capsized, the location is almost the same and the cause - a large wave near reefs - is also almost the same.
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AstoriaDave



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 994
City/Region: Astoria
State or Province: OR
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The prelim report has some nuggets of info, which suggest some plausible scenarios. I am waiting for more complere info to comment further. I have paddled in a sea kayak in the general area where the vessel was swamped, and can vouch for the irregularity of the depths. Ten foot swells can really pouch up when they come through a shallower section, yet without breaking. When there is a sizeable swell running, I would rather boat in open waters of depth than over an irregular bottom.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent points, and none of us know what happened. I have heard reports from that the boat took on massive amounts of water, Rogue Wave, rough, calm with rollers, to capsize, flipped end over end, to gear failure? We are also told that many of the passengers were on the top deck, and on the port side looking at Seals or Sea Lions.

Marc Andre Poisson, Director of Marine Investigations for Canada's Transportation Safety Board, said Tuesday
Quote:
that having so many people on the left side of the boat "raised the center of gravity."
Initial response from Transport Canada:

Quote:
"We know that most passengers were on the top deck on the port side, that's the left side of the vessel. This would have raised the center of gravity, affecting the vessel's stability," Poisson said at a news conference in Tofino.

"We also know that the sea conditions were such that a wave approached from the starboard quarter, that's the right of the vessel. We know that the vessel broached and then capsized."

He said investigators have now interviewed the three crew members and some of the passengers. One life raft deployed and was used, he said. The full investigation is expected to take months.


One hopes to make any of these situations a learning experience. This is one of the beauties of the internet. How many professional skippers have a "ditch bag" at the ready, or a hand held radio on their person? I have been on the bridge/pilot house etc of a number of commercial vessels--and none have I seen a ditch bag, or a hand held VHF, attached to the person of the skipper. I have often seen hand held radios in the wheel house. y (confirmed on this vessel by press) I'll ask my tug skipper friend next time I see him what they have on the Crowley Tugs.

I keep the "ditch bag" next to my feet at the helm of any boat I am on--including the dinghy--that bag goes where I go when boating. Along with VHF radio, PLB, Flares etc. that are contained in the ditch bag.

For discussion purposes here is the photo of the boat.


We see at least 3 canister life rafts (confirmed by the press)--generally these size of canisters are going to be 12 to 15 passengers rafts, but we don't know if they had hydrostatic release. There was also an inflatable, but don't know if it were carried, or if it was strapped down. We know that at least one raft was deployed, since there is a photo of it in one of the videos. Press states 8 or 9 passengers were taken from at least one life raft.

The next question we have to ask, (applying an emergency to our type of boats) is what is the skippers, response to any emergency. I believe it should be the safety of passengers/crew. Thus some distress signal should be the first response. The range of a water level portable VHF is very limited--it is possible that the skipper was helping to get people who were in the cabin, out of the boat. In the past this same company had loss of life in incidents.

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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
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City/Region: Cordova
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C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good old following seas on the stern quarter. So few boats perform well in that situation. This boat has the appearance of being heavy in the bow, which would make correcting the problem more difficult once you began to broach.

It's a horrible story. Hats off to the First Nations who responded. I work for a similar organization and we are involved in SAR fairly often, however as I've posted, we rarely get the opportunity to rescue, but do a lot of searching. I hope we would do as well if the situation called for it.
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Hunkydory



Joined: 28 Mar 2005
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City/Region: Cokeville, Wyoming
State or Province: WY
C-Dory Year: 2000
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Vessel Name: Hunkydory
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, a horrible story & one to learn from. This is why on our first outside water exploring of Chichigof Island Southeast, Alaska, we were told by a fisherman who had fished those waters for the previous 40 years not to go there even in wide spaced swells if they were over 10 feet. This area too, had reefs & shallow areas, which could create large waves seemingly out of nowhere. We were out in this area in 10 footers & all was well except for one wave out of the blue that rose up much much higher & very steep & though we were headed directly into it & the curl on top small it still was very worrisome to us. I think if it would have have hit the Leviathan 11 in the same manner as the one that did, the results could possibly have been the same. It seems the boats that are carrying paying passengers into these type of waters & conditions may need a higher certification level, but I definitely don't know enough about the present ones to be sure. It will be interesting to read the finished incident report. One would think in a 20 year span this boat would have been exposed to many similar waves from all directions with the passengers up top & in similar positions too. I hope they can piece together why this time the boat capsized.

Jay

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Gene Stebbs.



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"This is why on our first outside water exploring of Chichigof Island Southeast, Alaska, we were told by a fisherman who had fished those waters for the previous 40 years not to go there even in wide spaced swells if they were over 10 feet. " Was that up around Cross Sound( if memory serves me correctly) or down at the south end of the island?" We had a couple of rough days trolling with a 30+ ft. boat years ago on the north end when coming out from the narrow slots twixt the islands there, wasn't a lot better farther out. I guess this is called acquiring local knowledge the hard way. To bad about the incident in BC, that boat just "looks" top heavy to me, I was looking at some of the Bayliners with enclosed flybridges and they give me the same feeling. I am sure it is just my perception in both cases.
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Kushtaka



Joined: 17 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Archipelago is funny like that. I've spent hundreds of solo skiff hours in southeast, and it was always impressive how, while running through islands, some passages could be serenely calm and some could be raging with huge waves at the same time. Sometimes there seemed to be no rhyme nor reason to it, others, tide and wind predicted which passages would be rougher and which calmer. I don't consider myself a local to the area, but I think the local knowledge is the understanding and acceptance of the unpredictability.

Large swells interacting with shallow areas are treacherous. The odd large swell can behave very differently than other smaller swells. Couple that with the tide going out and sometimes 20' tide differences means currents are an additional factor, and the depth is constantly changing. Waves tend to be well behaved until the bottom of the wave (most of a wave lies beneath the surface) comes into contact with the bottom causing it to break. The larger the wave appears to us on the surface, the more depth it requires. IF those 10' swells were just off the bottom below the surface, then a slightly larger wave might behave very differently. When approaching from aft it could catch a helmsman off guard.

Most power boats weathervane with their stern quarter to the wind. That's one of the dangerous parts of your engine dying. Because of anti-harrassment regulations, most whale watch boats are supposed to be in neutral or have their engines off. If the waves and wind are coming from the same direction (i.e. usually) this leaves most boats ready for a broach. It isn't practical for a whale watching boat to toss an anchor out, or use a sea anchor. Most sail boats point nose into the wind, but the compromises of a planing or semi-displacement hull (and probably a lot of displacement hulls, but that is out of my expertise) and a forward cabin is a fairly poor posture when adrift. Had this boat gotten its bow into that wave under power it would have likely have amounted to no more than a little belly flutter for most of the guests and a pucker for the crew, not to second guess a situation I am only familiar with through media reporting but to make an observation that may be of use to someone else some day.
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