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Steering with twin engines: Differential Throttle Control
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brooks&judy



Joined: 18 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:04 am    Post subject: twin engine steerint Reply with quote

Thanks for that using twin engines post, Harvey, and for the kind words on my little R2AK ditty. I've been backing & filling my 22's port & st'b'd engines to get into and out of the very narrow channel to my "undesirable berth" in Port Townsend. It's the only way I can turn tightly enough to miss the sharp rock rip-rap lining this 12' wide course. The other side of this 300 yard channel is lined with boats side-tied to the floating dock, and the opening between floats to get out is maybe 14' wide. Several knots of wind is often blowing up or down the course.

I find when leaving, doing three knots, it's good to put the st'b'd engine in reverse about a boat-length before the opening I've got to turn right into, running it up to around 2,500 rpm, then goosing up the port engine to perhaps 3,500 rpm ahead to make the boat turn smartly, with a touch more reverse on the st'b'd engine if it looks like I'll run wide. Taking the st'b'd engine out of reverse & into forward straightens the boat's course promptly.

You're sure right about keeping the helm straight ahead, though it's against my instinct. I've got to remind myself not to turn the wheel or I screw it up.

Returning to my 'cheap' berth is the same evolution, just opposite engines put ahead & astern. It might be possible to come & go through this slot & right-angle turn with single-screw, but I'd prefer not to try it. It would mean lots of wheel cranking and goosing it in forward & reverse.

Twin engines do seem the ticket on C-Dorys, which tend to handle like a bar of soap. I second your comments! And thank you for the education on our hydraulic steering systems! Good stuff to know.
~ Bt
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the reasons that topic are often repeated, and tips are also repeated, is that we have a number of new C Dory owners. The boats handle a bit differently than many other boats. We should never discourage questions and learning by new members.

A couple of other thoughts: Always stop and shift the boat before coming into a tight situation. (That is one I learned from experience, when I had the shifter cable securing clip come off of the transmission in a 65,000 #, 62 foot boat!--fortunately no damage, but a lot of sweat!)


A trick I have often repeated is to practice away from a dock. Tie two fenders to a boat hook, and drop it over the side. practice "docking" along side the two fenders--both sides, stern too, and bow too. Also you can set up a slalom course with several fenders if you need to practice short turns. Set up several fenders in shoal water, with weights holding the fenders in place.

Also there are going to be times, when it is better to back into a slip. Especially when you have to go into the wind--the bow will fall off, and the boat can be more accurately steered in reverse.

One other trick not mentioned in docking, is the use of spring lines.

A comprehensive book on docking is by Charles T Low (MD). The book is out of print, but copies are still available on Amazon. Here is a link of an article by Dr. Low,:

http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/bdock.htm

Although many of the books are written for inboards, there are many common maneuvers which are similar with outboards.

Over 90% of my personal docking experience is with inboard sailboats, where a big rudder is a real advantage.

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BTDT



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bob,

The previous owner of my 2007 Tomcat had passed away in the boat, and no one in the family had ever driven, so it has been what you might say a true 'learning experience'; to include driving it on to the trailer for my first time at the wheel (after spending an hour looking for circuit breakers to turn-on the Morse dual controls ).

I have spent many days scouring the c-brats and other forums, and can't begin to express my appreciation to all the C-brats who post here.

Now for my question - My Tomcat has 150 Honda's that I assume are counter rotating. In my hands on practice, the one thing I found most challenging was trying to walk the Tomcat sideways. I have used the technique on my friends dual inboards with great results but on the Tomcat no luck. Am I missing something?

I also look forward to meeting you and Marie at Apalachicola.

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No you are not missing something. The issue with the Tom Cat,, and walking, is that the hulls work as "keels" because of the sharp chine, and make it much harder to walk. Also the outboards work differently than the inboards (see rudder effect). Under some ideal conditions it can be done. A lot depends on the props and the way the engines are set up.

The conventional technique does not work as well with outboards set the opposite from inboards. The larger inboard props have more walking torque. With both engines set to turn inboard -conventional set up--this is what you are normally encountering with a twin screw boat.

One of the differences in an I/O or outboard boat is that you are using prop wash against the rudder in an inboard boat--there is no such effect in an outboard boat. It is the direct stream of the prop wash, not deflected by a rudder. Trimming the motor up and down, can alter this sideways effect also.

Same is true in maneuvering a single inboard boat with a large rudder, you are pushing the stern to one side or another with the thrust of the prop wash against the rudder. (Of course single screw boats turn better to one direction than to the other, because of the prop walk effect.

Even in the C Dory 22, I prefer to dock starboard side too--prop in reverse pulls you over that way more, plus the starboard side is easy to reach the dock and get a line on a cleat or piling form the helm.
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Robert H. Wilkinson



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:

One other trick not mentioned in docking, is the use of spring lines.


I find a spring line is the best initial point of attachment when coming to a dock with the wind blowing you off. I made up a line the exact length to reach from the mid cleat to the stern cleat. The pre spliced end I attach to the mid cleat and on the other end I made a larger loop that I drop over the dock cleat where I want my stern to end up. When the line comes tight from the boats forward momentum I turn the helm off the dock and any prop thrust will keep the boat tight and parallel to the dock overcoming the wind trying to blow you off.

The beauty of having the line this exact length is - if you are coming into a finger dock you know you can keep your forward momentum until the line comes tight without fear of hitting the main dock with the bow. Also it leaves your stern at exactly the right place for you to easily attach the stern line without having to reach or step off.

Regards, Rob

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pandion wrote:
Doubtless, practicing is a crucial part of seamanship. But without some advance understanding of what you're about, you're not really practicing. You're experimenting.


Andy, Right On Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

Believe it or not but some of the Physics principles from HS physics actually stuck.

Switters said:

Quote:
"I do agree with you that practice trumps acedimia. Of course that's true. Maneuvering a vessel in a constantly changing dynamic environment is tricky. My philosophy is to use the simplest technique whenever possible."


I could not agree more. The idea for the OP came from watching so many operators struggle with side currents, windage, and tight spaces.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


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brooks&judy



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:04 pm    Post subject: backing&filling Reply with quote

Reading the other posts on this thread brought a couple things to mind re. maneuvering a twin-screw monohull C-Dory.:

Coming to a complete stop, as was suggested, before reversing one engine and going ahead on the other seems like more caution than I think necessary if your equipment is kept in good order. By reversing the engine on the side you plan to turn into while moving slowly anticipates its bite. The boat going 3 knots won't turn immediately, it will begin to turn in a second or two after one engine is reversed. Practice in a safe place is good advice here.

If there's significant wind or current, having weigh on may be the only way to keep control and avoid being blown into something, or as likely a help as having no weigh, depending on your situation, which in a boat is always, ah, fluid.

My reported RPMs, I realized may not be accurate. They were based on guessing by the sound, not observation of the tachs, but I do tend to use a fair number of revs briefly to pivot the boat smartly. Fewer rpm would mean a turn too sluggish to be effective for my described need.

Thanks to whomever for the reminder on springline use for coming alongside an upwind dock.

One last thing: For new C-Dory drivers, beware of letting folks on docks take your lines. Our boats are featherweight compared to most. When I've allowed strangers to our boats to take a line, they've too often pulled far too hard, slamming the boat to the dock so its fenders abruptly bounce it off and leave you out of shape. Best to learn to put it alongside any dock in any condition yourself(s). Even in heavy-displacement boats, I learned it's best not to accept line help from dockwalkers after having the well-intentioned pull or even cleat a line prematurely and ruin my approach.

~ Bt
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Hunkydory



Joined: 28 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob, not to put down any of the other informative post in this thread, but yours for me was worth more than all the rest combined. I have tried many variations of what you described on our CD22 when trying to dock into the wind, but never from the forward cleat of the boat to a dock cleat that would stop the boat, so as the rear cleat of the boat would match that dock cleat. I can see how this would have worked well in so many difficult docking we have made into a strong wind. Rob, thanks for your informative post & Harvey for you starting this thread.

Jay

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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hunkydory wrote:
Rob, not to put down any of the other informative post in this thread, but yours for me was worth more than all the rest combined. I have tried many variations of what you described on our CD22 when trying to dock into the wind, but never from the forward cleat of the boat to a dock cleat that would stop the boat, so as the rear cleat of the boat would match that dock cleat. I can see how this would have worked well in so many difficult docking we have made into a strong wind. Rob, thanks for your informative post & Harvey for you starting this thread.

Jay


Jay, the process Rob described is very similar to what I have used, (and was told it was called a "ferry tie"), by tying of the stern cleat to the dock cleat and leaving the outside OB in forward idle, pulling the bow to the dock. His system is using a forward or midship aft spring line, mine only uses the aft mooring line. Both will do the same job, so it becomes a preference thing I think. I don't have the extra line, cut and spliced for the right length so my stern mooring line does the job.


Brooks said:

Quote:
"Coming to a complete stop, as was suggested, before reversing one engine and going ahead on the other seems like more caution than I think necessary if your equipment is kept in good order. By reversing the engine on the side you plan to turn into while moving slowly anticipates its bite. The boat going 3 knots won't turn immediately, it will begin to turn in a second or two after one engine is reversed. Practice in a safe place is good advice here.

If there's significant wind or current, having weigh on may be the only way to keep control and avoid being blown into something, or as likely a help as having no weigh, depending on your situation, which in a boat is always, ah, fluid.


I agree. I wonder if Bob meant that the engine should be given time to come to zero RPM before switching gear from forward to reverse. I could see that as being less hard on the transmission shifter and linkage.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon

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Hunkydory



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardee wrote:
Hunkydory wrote:
Rob, not to put down any of the other informative post in this thread, but yours for me was worth more than all the rest combined. I have tried many variations of what you described on our CD22 when trying to dock into the wind, but never from the forward cleat of the boat to a dock cleat that would stop the boat, so as the rear cleat of the boat would match that dock cleat. I can see how this would have worked well in so many difficult docking we have made into a strong wind. Rob, thanks for your informative post & Harvey for you starting this thread.

Jay


Jay, the process Rob described is very similar to what I have used, (and was told it was called a "ferry tie"), by tying of the stern cleat to the dock cleat and leaving the outside OB in forward idle, pulling the bow to the dock. His system is using a forward or midship aft spring line, mine only uses the aft mooring line. Both will do the same job, so it becomes a preference thing I think. I don't have the extra line, cut and spliced for the right length so my stern mooring line does the job.

Harvey
SleepyC Moon


Harvey, I have tried the way you describe, with & without a loop at the end of the line to slip over the dock cleat. The problem we found is if the line is long enough to easily go over the dock cleat it allows the boat to go forward to far & without a loop, attaching to the cleat can take more time than the wind allows. That combined in the case of where we like to dock at Yellowstone Bridge Bay, with the strong afternoon winds pushing the bow into the electrical box mounted directly in between the two boat slips or another boat in the same two boat slip makes docking on the down wind side impossible for us especially with our large Manson Boss anchor. Rob's method of coming off the forward cleat using a measured line with a loop on the end could make docking where we prefer there possible under the normal afternoon southeast windy conditions. Docking on the other side of these two boat slips is easy with the wind holding the boat where it's wanted, but then if someone else has the other side veritably they will be hitting our boat in the process of their trying to dock.

Jay
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rogerbum



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hunkydory wrote:

Harvey, I have tried the way you describe, with & without a loop at the end of the line to slip over the dock cleat. The problem we found is if the line is long enough to easily go over the dock cleat it allows the boat to go forward to far & without a loop, attaching to the cleat can take more time than the wind allows. That combined in the case of where we like to dock at Yellowstone Bridge Bay, with the strong afternoon winds pushing the bow into the electrical box mounted directly in between the two boat slips or another boat in the same two boat slip makes docking on the down wind side impossible for us especially with our large Manson Boss anchor. Rob's method of coming off the forward cleat using a measured line with a loop on the end could make docking where we prefer there possible under the normal afternoon southeast windy conditions. Docking on the other side of these two boat slips is easy with the wind holding the boat where it's wanted, but then if someone else has the other side veritably they will be hitting our boat in the process of their trying to dock.

Jay

Agreed. Harvey's method works fine if the slip is longer than the boat but is not so good if the slip is shorter. Also to be clear, I think Rob's using the "midship" cleat and not the bow cleat (which people might confuse when the terminology "forward cleat" is used). The midship cleat is great as it's far enough back from the bow to be on the wide part of the hull and hence forward motion with tension applied there will not pivot the bow in. If one uses a cleat closer to the bow, forward motion and tension there will pull the bow in. Jay - I'm sure you know this and meant the midship cleat (the one near the opening side windows on a 22) but I just wanted to make sure the method was clear to others. Aslo, with regard to bow the bow and the midship lines, I like mine to be as long as possible without being long enough to catch in the prop. That way if for some reason they get overboard, they are not a major issue.

In response to brooks&judy's post about not letting others on the dock handle your dock lines - another minor point about docking is making sure that your passengers are well trained about what to do and not to do prior to arriving at the dock - especially those who have boated before and they tend to want to be "helpful". I've had people jump off with just the stern line in hand and ruin perfectly good landing (the stern is the only end of the boat I really can control from the helm at slow speed) and I've had people make huge unsafe leaps to the when if they had waited a minute or two, I'd have the boat much closer. This is especially a concern when I've misjudged and am about to back out for a second shot at it.

When things are calm, I'd far prefer to just have new people on the boat stay out of my way. I'll bring the boat alongside the dock, and get out calmly with both the bow and stern lines in my hands. However, when there is a strong cross wind blowing me off the dock, I have to count on someone in the cockpit to help out. This past season at Ilwaco, I had to land to port in my assigned slip with a ~30kt wind trying to blow me off (and into a beautiful Ranger Tug in the slip to my starboard side). There were a couple of occasions where it took more than one attempt and on one of those occasions I had to shout to my helper to let go of the bow line while I backed out for the re-do. That was even after briefing the crew on what to do but not covering what to do if we didn't get on the dock in the first try. The situation wasn't helped at all by having a slip about 26' long and having a boat that's about 28' overall but at Ilwaco, I had to take what I could get.

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bridma



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When arriving at a C-Brat gathering there is usually a Brat or two on hand to help with the docking process. I have seen several boats approach the 'space' at 45 degrees going dead slow. The Brat handles the bow pulpit and walks the boat into the slip while the captain does a touch of reverse and/or shuts off the engine.

I made the mistake this summer of assuming every boater would understand this logic. I puttered into a tight slip at the 45 degree angle, a non-brat lady was there to catch me. What did she do? Nothing! and I hit the dock.
So, the message is simple. Keep on practising docking as though you are the only person around. Even non-boater passengers are a liability in their efforts to be helpful.

Martin.
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thataway



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only time I use the bow cleat is for a breast line, once the boat is secured with the midships/aft lines. I might use it for "undocking" when I have a beam wind, and want to walk the stern off, in a tight situation, with a large fender to pivot on near the bow., but not when coming into the dock.

To clarify the "stop" when shifting. I like to have the prop not turning, before sifting in reverse. Bring the engine to idle, and shift to neutral. Then after a second or so in neutral, shift to revers, and then apply throttle. This does not imply that the boat's motion has stopped--in 80% of the cases, there is still forward way on.

We have all seen the "crash" reverse/forward to avoid a calamity. Something to be avoided. Docking at 3 knots is a bit faster than I am comfortable with. However, I was a passenger on a friends 57 foot sailboat, which had a folding prop (Martec). He came into the slip at about 3 knots--sort of "look at this"--right in front of the dining area at San Diego Yacht Club. The prop did not open in reverse, and he went right over about 8 feet of dock, sinking it, and hitting the boat on the other side!

Our rule, the person going to the dock waits until they can step off--not jump. At that point, I will usually have the midships line ready, and either over a cleat, or bull rail, or ready to hand to our crew.

I certainly agree--I try and avoid having someone who does not know what I am doing, take a dock line. They almost always try and tighten it up, which does not allow normal maneuvering.
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Hunkydory



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogerbum wrote:
Hunkydory wrote:

Harvey, I have tried the way you describe, with & without a loop at the end of the line to slip over the dock cleat. The problem we found is if the line is long enough to easily go over the dock cleat it allows the boat to go forward to far & without a loop, attaching to the cleat can take more time than the wind allows. That combined in the case of where we like to dock at Yellowstone Bridge Bay, with the strong afternoon winds pushing the bow into the electrical box mounted directly in between the two boat slips or another boat in the same two boat slip makes docking on the down wind side impossible for us especially with our large Manson Boss anchor. Rob's method of coming off the forward cleat using a measured line with a loop on the end could make docking where we prefer there possible under the normal afternoon southeast windy conditions. Docking on the other side of these two boat slips is easy with the wind holding the boat where it's wanted, but then if someone else has the other side veritably they will be hitting our boat in the process of their trying to dock.

Jay

Agreed. Harvey's method works fine if the slip is longer than the boat but is not so good if the slip is shorter. Also to be clear, I think Rob's using the "midship" cleat and not the bow cleat (which people might confuse when the terminology "forward cleat" is used). The midship cleat is great as it's far enough back from the bow to be on the wide part of the hull and hence forward motion with tension applied there will not pivot the bow in. If one uses a cleat closer to the bow, forward motion and tension there will pull the bow in. Jay - I'm sure you know this and meant the midship cleat (the one near the opening side windows on a 22) but I just wanted to make sure the method was clear to others. Aslo, with regard to bow the bow and the midship lines, I like mine to be as long as possible without being long enough to catch in the prop. That way if for some reason they get overboard, they are not a major issue

Thanks Roger for the clarification. I did mean the mid ship cleat when I described it as the forward cleat.

Jay
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Robert H. Wilkinson



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogerbum wrote:
Also to be clear, I think Rob's using the "midship" cleat and not the bow cleat (which people might confuse when the terminology "forward cleat" is used). The midship cleat is great as it's far enough back from the bow to be on the wide part of the hull and hence forward motion with tension applied there will not pivot the bow in. If one uses a cleat closer to the bow, forward motion and tension there will pull the bow in.


Thanks for clearing that up - this is correct.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that this method is also very effective if you are coming into a finger slip with a larger boat beside you which can make it difficult to come in at an angle and necessitates approaching parallel to the dock. With wind blowing you off a parallel approach does not give you as much time to tie up as coming in at an angle and walking the boat sideways into the dock.

Also don't forget that the helm must be turned off the dock for this to work.

Regards, Rob
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