Leak from bow pulpit stanchion base

RichardM

Rain has been leaking into the forward cabin of my 2007 22 cruiser. This is my first year with the boat. Yesterday I went out during a storm and found the source: a steady leak around the bolts for one bow pulpit stanchion. The pulpit will need to come off so I can inspect all the bolt holes. Has anyone else had this problem? I know how to repair it (drill all holes larger, dig out core material, refill with thickened resin, re-drill to proper size, and bed the fittings properly) but how did the factory install them originally, and is this something that's happened on other boats?

Sea Wolf · Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:28 pm Post subject:

RichardM-

We'll have to wait and see all the responses, but I don't remember ever having heard of this problem before, going back to 1998 on this and several other C-Dory sites preceeding this one, IIRC.

Probably just a one-time omission on adding the caulking (?) during assembly.

The solution is simple, if labor intensive.

I might try to fix the one set of holes on the one stanchion, cleaning them out and repairing them from below, assuming that the others are OK. (?) Could save a lot of time.

Good Luck!

Joe. Teeth

RichardM · Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Joe. Taking the pulpit off now. In for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe I won't have to redo all the holes; we'll see how well sealed they have been.

RichardM · Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject:

The pulpit is off. Black stains make it clear that water intruded under all 4 stainless base plates and, worse, down bolts and into the cabin in all 4 locations. While there is flexible white sealant on the fiberglass deck all the way around the attachment point in all 4 locations, it was too thin to create a full seal at any of them. The sealant had not adhered to the stainless base plates at all; it had stuck only to the fiberglass, and any seal to the metal would have been mechanical. I still need to see if there is any core damage to be treated. I know this boat was stored uncovered outdoors through at least one, and probably more than one, Long Island winters.

Sunbeam · Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject:

I can't imagine you're the first to have a pulpit/stancihion base leak. I removed my pulpit last summer, prophylactically , and did the full routine. The bases were originally bedded in white silicone , which, if you've followed any of my posts you know thrilled me immensely. Nothing like a compound that doesn't do the best job and then takes an army to remove (ahem).

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that you have a slightly bigger job ahead. It can be aggravating, but on the other hand you can end up with a great end result that you won't have to worry about for a long time ( and when you do it will be a simple re-bedding). If you'd like, we can help you formulate a plan once you see what you have. Or just commiserate, if that's what you need.

Sunbeam · Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:52 pm Post subject:

PS: I should clarify that it's not that the C-Dory is any "worse" in this regard. It's simply that even an excellent bedding job needs to be renewed after some years have gone by. It would be nice if they had sealed off the core and/or used something other than silicone (in my opinion), but after nearly ten years a re-bedding is not an unusual thing even when the best products/techniques are used. There is expansion and contraction of dissimilar materials, UV light, twisting/movement when underway, sometimes freezing and thawing, etc. This is why I like a bedding compound that is easily removed/replaced (for example, polysulfide, butyl, and others). If the core is protected then a leak comes into the cabin, but no great harm is done as long as it's not left to drip/mold over time. The potential "secret seep" into the core is thus avoided.

johnr · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:58 am Post subject:

Here's an entire thread about this:

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t=22641&highlight=

Sunbeam · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:42 am Post subject:

John,

I must have spent twenty minutes looking for that thread last night before my last reply. I knew it existed but apparently just couldn't hit on the right search terms. Thanks for linking to it.

johnr · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:56 pm Post subject:

RichardM · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:37 pm Post subject:

Here's an update. Once the rail was removed I used a razor blade scraper to take the old sealant off the hull. It ranged from very thin to nonexistent under each stanchion; certainly there was never enough to prevent water intrusion, and there was black mold under each of the 4 bases. Cleaned out all the bolt holes and used a reamer to chamfer them, which had never been done. Under the starboard two bases I found wet, rotten core material. I used bent coat hanger wires (short at first, then longer) in the drill to excavate it -- one base is much worse than the other, and if I had a few more skills I would remove a section of deck to see if the moisture goes beyond the reach of my tools. As it is, I excavated a bit over an inch beyond the edges of the bolt holes in the worst location, which is the rear starboard stanchion base. Seemed to be getting to dry material, though it's hard to tell. It was sunny today and the deck warmed up; at night I will prop a light bulb under the worst location to keep it warm and promote drying. I'm considering a fan, a hair dryer or compressed air to help dry any remaining core. Will use West System to epoxy everything. I plan to re-bed the rail using either butyl tape or polysulfide (Boat Life Calk) a la Don Casey. All suggestions welcome!

Sunbeam · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:49 pm Post subject:

johnr · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:19 pm Post subject:

Sunbeam · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:43 pm Post subject:

I agree on going from underneath. If you are really unsure, there are a few ways to check, but nothing beats actually getting a look at it. A moisture meter would give you a good idea of where things changed, but you may not have one at your disposal. Another thing I have done is to catch the boat (other boat, but same principal) early in the morning after a cool/cold night. Then use an IR thermometer to check it. Frozen (damp) core may be at a different temp (I used this to find the exact outline of an encapsulated keel).

If you do want to drill, I'd make small holes on the underside (through the bottom skin only) and carefully watch the "shavings" that come out. Then, depending on size, you can either just fill with epoxy or make a small fiberglass patch (presuming you don't have calamitous rot).

RichardM · Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:04 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement. Here's the latest. I drilled 3 holes on the underside, between the bolt holes, at the worst site. The core material in all three looks dry and fresh. They let me do a little more core excavating too. The boat sat in the warm sun another day and again tonight there will be a drop light with 75 watt bulb under the worst location. My woodworker's moisture meter may or may not fit through the holes to get a reading (good idea, I hadn't thought of that) -- will see tomorrow. If things still look dry I will start filling holes and refilling the cavity with thickened epoxy. Is that best done in layers, so a big thickness doesn't kick off all at once? Maybe West Systems' instructions will have an answer. Fortunately the weather looks good for the rest of the week. Hope that's enough.

Sunbeam · Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:46 am Post subject:

Sounds like you got good news, and now you know for sure Thumbs Up

Since you have extra holes, you may be able to use them to your advantage. Here's why I say that: A "blind" hole is always hard to fill, because air gets trapped in it. So when I can, I make a blind hole not be a blind hole. SO much easier to fill (especially if it is relatively narrow, and hard to get to the bottom).

1) Connect some adjacent holes (such as, when I did my bow pulpit holes, I connected all three with some small "tunnels" in the core - was not hard since I was overdrilling anyway.

2) If necessary, drill a purposeful "relief hole." This isn't needed often, but for example, when I did the holes for my trim tab upper attachments (on the vertical transom), I ended up with an "upper cave" above the hole (from overdrilling). What I did was drill a very small hole on the inside of the transom (this was behind the fuel tanks) at the apex of the "cave." Made it easy to fill from the bottom/outside until a bit of thickened epoxy started coming out the upper hole (like doing an outboard lower unit).

3) Or, sometimes you can use a syringe and start at the bottom of the hole and work up (can be tough on relatively deep narrow holes).

So anyway, perhaps you can use those holes to make some air relief tunnels.

What I do when I'm filling is put blue tape over the whole shebang on deck. Then I use an X-acto knife to cut the circles out of the tape that are the holes. Sounds fussy, but for me beats going around with a million little bits of tape on the edge. Then when I fill I just let it slightly "muffin top" over the hole, and when it's in the green stage (rubbery but not sticky), I slice off the muffin top with a chisel, and voila, flat deck again. (Then re-drill later.)

Sometimes I fill from below - just depends on air situation. If you "paint" the inside of the holes with neat (plain) epoxy first, then fill with thickened epoxy, it works out better.

Glad you did not find a worst case scenario (even though even that could be fixed).

BTW, I don't think a "pin" type meter works very well. I'm not sure why, but I just know those aren't used (but maybe they do work if you can touch the wood inside?). Typically it's surface meters that are used. 'course you have seen the real thing now.