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Economy, twin emgines vs. single engine
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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1518
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be all wet with my understanding of 'economy in a boat'; an oxymoron.

It goes along with 'pleasure of climbing a mountain', 'racing sailbotes' (the old
fashioned ones without foils), and 'honest politicians'.

Unless everything is relative.

Aye.

Grandma used to say, "If you're going to ask how much it costs to buy or how
much it costs to own and use, you shouldn't have it."

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Pat Anderson



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 8551
City/Region: Birch Bay, WA
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Daydream
Photos: Daydream and Crabby Lou
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choice of boat depends on need for elbow room. We have owned a CD22, now have a CD25, and it would be somewhat difficult for the two of us to go back, but that is purely a personal thing. If you don't need a head, a Venture 23 is an excellent choice, I really like that boat. Heck, Bill and El used to regularly have themselves, one of their sons and two of their grandchildren on the CD22 Halcyon. If you like to read, Halcyon Days is one of the best cruising blogs ever.

Everything that needed to be said about economy has been said. THE single most important factor influencing economy is cruising speed. If you are used to 6-7 knots, and it doesn't drive you crazy not to ram the boat around full throttle like a lunatic in an express cruiser, that is where the CD25 delivers. We have become 5-7 knot cruisers, with the ability to go fast when we need to. We just set the RPMs for 2200 on the BF150 and let the cruise speed rise or fall with conditions. We are loaded for bear, so "fast" is a relative term here! I don't trust my Navman's calibration, so I am not going to say absolute numbers but it is at least two to three times more efficient than 13 knots and up. At 8-11 knots, the boat is just pushing water out of the way and fuel efficiency is at its worst. I would say 12 knots could go either way, depending on how you are loaded and whether conditions are good so you pop up on a plane quickly, but why? You might as well get 'er up to 14-16 knots because there is no savings at 12 even if you are on a plane.

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CRABBY LOU - CD16 Angler (sold 2020)
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http://daydreamsloop.blogspot.com

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Gene Stebbs.



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 54
City/Region: McMinnville
State or Province: OR
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the offer John, I am long ways from choosing yet but will keep your offer in mind. I liked the cabin room on the 25 and ran 7 knts for quite a few years on a work boat, and it did not hurt me any, and I probably saw more than had I been a shootin" and a scootin"with most of the hull out of the water. Lots of good stuff here, been enjoying the archives/library.
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Sunbeam



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of my previous boats have been "hull speed" boats, and I too like the slow, relaxed pace. Of course it IS fun to push the throttle forward and "zoom." Very Happy

But the main thing I've found wonderful about the ability to go fast is the flexibility it give you in choosing anchorages. 'Course it all depends on boating area, but many times I've been "forced" to make a day go a certain way, because there were a limited number (maybe "one") of anchorages I could reach. Being able to go faster for a part of the day opens up the possibilities, and/or allows you to keep going if the first anchorage doesn't suit for some reason - and still get in before dark.

(Not that you couldn't figure this out, but just saying what has been my most "wow, this is neat" feature of being able to go faster at times.
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journey on



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3593
City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to bring attention to the most cogent truth in this thread:

Quote:
Foggy: "economy in a boat is an oxymoron"


Your choice is between 2 nmpg and 4 nmpg. How good is that?

Journey On has a 100 gal tank, Santa Cruz Isle is 25 miles away and we have to be careful to make sure we have enough to get back to the mainland. How's that for fuel efficiency?

Boris
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Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 8650
City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another positive virtue of a faster boat, if it hasn't already been mentioned, is the ability to safely get back to protected waters /harbors when bad WX appears.

Who'd want to be 30-50 miles from safe harbor when limited to 7 mph? Xmas Eek

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up

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"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous
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Sunbeam



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sea Wolf wrote:


Who'd want to be 30-50 miles from safe harbor when limited to 7 mph? Xmas Eek

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up


Well true, but on the other hand, often slower boats are more "seaworthy." Different hull shapes, self-draining cockpits, ballast, etc. Doesn't necessarily go hand-in-hand with being slower, but often does just due to a "hull speed" hull shape.

Not saying being able to go fast is a bad thing though.

On the "if you have to ask you can't afford it" theme.... I don't believe in that. To my mind there is nothing wrong with asking about the cost of operating and maintaining a boat (or anything else you are considering buying). In some cases fuel cost is a small percentage of operating cost, but not always. Why not gather information and make an informed choice.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe, once the bad weather comes along, you may not be able to make more that 6 to 7 miles an hour. I have a lot of miles at 6 to 7 knots, and some in some really nasty weather. Far worse than anyone wants to be out in!

Down in the Guilf of Mexico, it is hard to "out run weather" .

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
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williwaw



Joined: 05 Jan 2014
Posts: 148
City/Region: Portland
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Williwaw
Photos: Williwaw
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might also give a call to Sportcraft Marina (just south of Portland) to see what they have in stock. They often have some new/used models in the yard that you can crawl around.

Can you expand a bit on what you mean by living aboard? I believe most people who take extended trips still hit marinas every few days (with exceptions for more remote locations) for provisions, fuel, etc. Even with careful planning and luck fishing it's hard to imagine being self sufficient for more that a couple weeks as fuel and water would slowly drain away.
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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1518
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your main goal is to 'put-put along' but are worried
about getting trapped in 'bad weather' and having to
'ride it out', you should have a sailboat which is designed
to move at displacement speeds (unlike a C-Dory with its
planing hull) for long passages and is, IMHO, much preferable
to be aboard when the the seas are really snarly, not a C-Dory.

Aye.

Grandpa (an old Navy man) used to say, "There's no such thing
as 'the perfect boat'."
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jbdba01



Joined: 18 Nov 2014
Posts: 172

State or Province: FL
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Economy, twin emgines vs. single engine Reply with quote

Gene Stebbs. wrote:
I hope to pick up a used 24-25 ft. C Dory, hopefully within 3 years or so as family health conditions allow me the freedom to do so. My knowledge about the larger outboards is nill, and my main concern is economy as I may end up running the boat back and forth from Washington to SE AK.


Since economy is your main concern and it sounds like you already know that boats are a constant money/time hole there may be one thing that sways your decision on larger boats. If it has a head, galley, and berth a portion of the interest on a loan is deductible.

More details here...the article is a bit dated, but it was the only one I found on a quick google.

There may be some professionals here that can elaborate on it, but if you pay enough in interest it may be enough to get your attention.
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Gene Stebbs.



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 54
City/Region: McMinnville
State or Province: OR
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I should have said that my concern was economy compared to the 7-9 knt work boats I have ran before and any pro/con with splitting your horsepower between two engines, as for living aboard, my only stops at towns, or tenders would be for fuel, water, general resupply, so I like the 9' cabin of the cd 25...unless I find a nice hole on the west side of P. of Wales Island to stay over for a while in the fall-early winter? a little bay along the back water passage from Whale cove to Craig comes to mind if I recall correctly, all just personal choice... the ability to scoot behind an island to find a bite to drop the hook is also a plus to me with these boats. I have looked on line for a couple of months for a "type" of boat that I thought would suit my needs and this type seems pretty good for what I have planned, the extra hull area of typical cruisers or the sea sport V types just seems to be more boat to push around than I really need. Should I choose to challenge the N. Pacific in bad weather it would not be in any type of 25' boat, I have replaced a windshield and a trolling poll due to bad judgement and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't get me wrong I greatly appreciate any and all input from the folks here. I will pay cash for whatever I get as no interest is the best type to me. Thanks again to all for shedding more light on various topics as we go.
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Foggy



Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1518
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One factor which I've not seen discussed on these type boats is
freeboard. For NMI made boats, C-Dory and SeaSport seem to come
up short on freeboard compared to the Osprey. No such data
posted with the Mfg.

Granted, more freeboard makes for more boat to push around
(less economy) but I'll bet my whiskers the Osprey has a dryer
ride in most head on seas.

Thoughts?

Aye.
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Gene Stebbs.



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 54
City/Region: McMinnville
State or Province: OR
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have to agree based on all the photos I have seen, to me it seemed to be more so on the CD25 than the other CD's. It may be part of the Dory style?,I have a 18' plank hull Pacific City Dory in the back yard I was going to restore in 1973 or thereabouts but never got around to it. It is beyond salvation now, I think it is still out there in the brush. The builder used the"clinched" nail method attatching the planks and used to save gas coupons during WW2 so he could use a 2hp kicker to troll for salmon. The gunnels on that boat were not far off the water. He used to set a sprinkler in the boat for a day or two so it would swell up tight enough to float! It had a plywood motor well a bit to the stearn of amidship.
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breausaw



Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1222
City/Region: Anchorage
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Triple J
Photos: Triple J
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: Economy, twin emgines vs. single engine Reply with quote

Gene Stebbs. wrote:
t has been over 35 years since I have had REAL boat under me, I ran a 34' refitted steel hull lifeboat with a 300CI ford engine, from Seattle to SE Alaska and back for 5 seasons, 7 knots wide open with the tide and wind on your back side, with no lift at all on the bow with this style, it would however take Noahs flood on the backside and ride in comfort. I hope to pick up a used 24-25 ft. C Dory, hopefully within 3 years or so as family health conditions allow me the freedom to do so. My knowledge about the larger outboards is nill, and my main concern is economy as I may end up running the boat back and forth from Washington to SE AK. I would like to know what the most economic size engine for a 25' C Dory would be, keeping in mind that cruising a 12mph is fine with me and on flat water I do not need to run at 30-40 mph. Also what loss in economy is there when going from a 150 HP single engine to a pair of 75's. Thanks in advance folks, it sure seems to be nice group here and quite knowledgeable as well. I will be around picking your brains from time to time, hope I do not wear your collective patience out to soon. A good day and happy boating to all,Gene.


Ok, read through all replies. My 07 25 has a 150 murcery Verado, my best fuel economy on step is about 2.5 to 2.75 mpg at 4200 rpm with 14 pitch prop. On flat water I get about the same fuel economy at about 5000 rpm at 27 mph.
The only people who really want to sell you on twins these days is dealers, unless you have such a big boat you need the extra hp and require twin 250s or 300s. If you can achieve the required hp with one motor and a kicker for safety your saving money all around and not giving the dealer extra profit.
For me it's range not economy, that's just were I'm at in my present boating needs. I generally cover between 150 and 250 miles on a 2 to 4 day outing, so money for fuel is not really the issue, it's getting as much out of the time I have left on this rock in space along with the short Alaska summers.

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Jay

2007 22ft C-Dory Triple J 2007-2012
2007 25ft C-Dory Triple J 2012-2018
Boatless for now but looking
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