Electric Over Hydraulic - Needed?????

[Will-C]

For those of you who do your own maintenance. I would recommend changing your brake fluid every two or three years. Brake fluid absorbs moisture and moisture can cause corrosion internally in your calipers. E.O.H. brakes are a lot easier to bleed than dealing with the surge brake's actuator. Another plus is that your trailer brakes actually work backing up. Like when you go down a steep slippery ramp. It's pretty much a given that the same vehicle and trailer equipped with E.O.H. will out stop the same setup with surge brakes. So you have to ask yourself is smart to travel with no brakes? Should some yo yo pull a boneheaded move I would rather have the best possible brakes. The choice is yours. Would you like to save some money and then possibly hurt someone else or your family? For me I want the better braking system. If the unthinkable occurs I at least feel I have done everything the best way to avoid any calamities. If you are just doing local from your house to the closest ramp that's one thing. But if you travel further the idea of the best braking system becomes a much better idea. IMHO. If you are trying to save money buying a boat was a really a bad idea.
D.D.

[colbysmith]

JayMac, I have pure electric brakes on my CD-22, and have ran all electric (as opposed to Electric over Hydraulic), on past boat trailers including a 21' pontoon and Searay 268 Sundancer. There are many naysayers here about electric, and I'll be right up front stating I'm a fresh water boater. (But there are a few salt water guys that use them as well.) I doubt you need any brakes on a 16' boat trailer, unless it's a fairly heavy boat. But electric brakes are pretty inexpensive. Unless the drums are shot, you should be able to replace the entire brake assembly on a single axle for well under $100. (I believe they run about $25 a side.) That's unbolting the brake backing plate and all, and replacing with new. Not much mechanical ability needed. (Undo 4 bolts/nuts, cut wires remove, replace, splice wires. You do need to know how to "adjust" the brakes then, which just involves turning the star wheel until the drums won't turn, and backing off one turn.) If you already have your trailer and tow vehicle set up for electric brakes, if it were me, I'd replace the brake assembly. Otherwise, if you want to go brakeless, shouldn't be that hard to unbolt the brake backing plate and remove. Colby

[Dreamer]

Steve, I would vote for the EOH brakes. Having made the conversion to my EZ Loader TomCat trailer, I can attest to the improved braking. The parts and installation position is shown here:
http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album482&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[journey on]

As usual, here is a salt water comment on electric brakes, just so one understands how they work and the potential impact of salt corrosion. Remember, brakes on a boat trailer are important for stability, stopping and all around good feeling. They may be good for fresh water, but not for salt water.

First, the electric brakes I'm familiar with have one long brake shoe, U-shaped. This shoe is forced into the drum by a electro-magnet, which rubs against the shoe when energized by the electric controller in the tow vehicle. So it depends on an electrical circuit, including the magnet, and good friction against the brakes shoe. It works well in our travel trailer., even after hauling it through streams, flooded roads, etc. So I can only assume that it works well after being immersed in fresh water.

So now, lets talk about salt water. First, ColbySmith talks about splicing wires. Does anybody remember incandescent bulbs in trailer lights? And how hard they were to keep running, until you removed them so they didn't get immersed in salt water? Think of the electrical connections inside your brake drums and how you would seal them. Next, when I look at the surface of the electro-magnets on the brakes (every 2 years or so,) they have a shiny surface where they rub on the brake shoe. I compare that to the disk surface on brakes that have been immersed in salt water and corroded. Very low friction, even when I flush the disks after each use.

So my conclusion is that they may work well in Wisconsin, but not for salt water. It would be nice to get a salt water users opinion. I can only avoid them.

Boris

[colbysmith]

For a picture of what Boris is talking about:



This is a photo of my brakes after 3 seasons (fresh water use). The electro magnet is the rectangular shaped thing center bottom. As Boris stated, it drags against the drum and when energy is applied (via the tow vehicle brake controller) magnetizes and begins to pull harder to the turning drum, which in turn pulls the expander mechanism on the right shoe, which also extends the left shoe. (Much like a parking brake on vehicle drum brakes.) Most electric brake magnets are encased in epoxy where the wires enter the windings inside. If you already have drum brakes, you should not notice any more corrosion/rust than what you are already experiencing. EOH (electric over hydraulic) has the advantage of using the hydraulic system brakes which means you can go disc if you want. However, you have the electric pump to deal with also. I've read where others have experienced problems with those pumps when they get soaked, and the hydraulics still needs to be maintained as well. I have toyed with the idea myself of going to EOH. But at $25/wheel to stick with Electric, which is pretty simplistic and has worked well for me, I guess I'm going to continue suggesting electric as a viable option when folks ask. JayMac, if you decide to just dump brakes all together, you would simply cut the wires on the back of the brake backing plate, then pull the 4 nuts off the bolts holding that brake assembly on to the trailer axle. You can then place the hub/drum back on the spindle, or replace that with a non-drum hub. I really don't think a 16' boat would justify the cost for EOH brakes. (I believe the pumps alone run $700 and up.) I pulled my boat with these brakes over the Mountains around Yellowstone NP last summer, with my Toyota Highlander, and plenty of stopping power from the trailer brakes. JMHO!

[gulfcoast john]

I'm glad pure electric can work for some...us gulf Florida boaters are a minority, but the Gulf saltwater gets to 90 degrees (warmer near some shallow ramps) and my drum brakes on a Mako 23 (even with hose flushing attachment that directed rinse water right into the drum innards and used every outing) rusted out in one season. Drum brakes and hot saltwater don't play well together.
Whatever works for you!
John

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Thanks everyone! I am pretty sure we will end up going with EOH, just not sure when.

John, with respect to your commen about Dr Bob's knowledge... I consider cruising with Bob like receiving graduate level education in boating.

[Sunbeam]

Will-C,

Just for the record, I don't have surge brakes because I'm cheap (if I were cheap, I wouldn't have a boat in the first place!). I have them because they work well for my purposes. I don't have a problem with anyone choosing something different, but I do bristle a bit when there is the implication that anyone making a different choice is basically taking their family's lives in their hands (given that we are not talking about haywire rigs here, but rather different choices in well-maintained ones).

I never thought about needing trailer braking power when backing down a ramp. I guess I would have thought that the vehicle brakes would be like trailer brakes when going forward - in other words, when backing up you have "the end car on the train" providing braking power (the tow rig). I'm also usually going pretty slowly. Do you typically activate your EOH trailer brakes when backing down the ramp?

[Will-C]

Sunbeam,
I'm if a shoe fits wear it kind of a guy. No need to take anything personally. I do think there are some people who make decisions based on what they can get away to save a dollar thinking their driving skills will make the difference being better drivers and the like. I have been pulling boat trailers for about 30 years. Some with brakes some without. My last boat came with surge brakes and I had it converted to EOH. At first I had a 1200 PSI actuator, then later after a few years I upgraded to the 1600psi actuator. I have always noticed an improvement and I was glad I upgraded. For those who are happy with surge brakes I wish you all the best. But if you do trailer you boat over any real distances if you ever had EOH you will not go back unless you have a very light boat. Does a person with a relatively light boat need EOH? Depends on the person I guess and the set of circumstances. If I were pulling up and down long grades I would probably swing for them. But as I said if your just bopping down to your local ramp certainly not. It also has to do with the tow vehicles ability to stop the whole package. Some towing with marginal tow vehicles might like to have the idea of better brakes. I made sure to put in my post IMHO. I use a 3/4 ton Chevy with a Duramax diesel. Seen as over kill by some for when I pulled a 23' C-Dory. I my world doing things in what I see as the right way pays benefits. When I bought a larger boat I already had a truck that would pull it. I don't know about you but when I back down any ramp I use the brakes to stop. Anytime I step on the brakes the EOH brakes activate. I don’t unplug the electrical connection to the trailer when backing down a ramp. Does using my trailer brakes while backing down a ramp make a difference? I won't ever know I guess. But on a sandy ramp it might. I also think four drive is a good idea. Should everyone have it? Do look at folks who don't have four wheel drive as no good losers? Certainly not. You seem to have a history with me of seeing what you feel are derogatory inflections. You need to lighten up. These are my opinions not a personal attack directed at you. My references were to encourage folks to look at the bigger picture.
D.D.

[Will-C]

duplicate post

[colbysmith]

Just so nobody reads me wrong either. I do believe brakes of some sort on a trailer of any weight increases the safety margin. The heavier the trailer the larger the safety margin. I only bristle when I hear guys badmouthing electric brakes, especially if they do not have personal experience with them. Brakes, regardless of type, require maintenance. Dunking in salt is going to require more maintenance, regardless what style brake you have. Cost is an important factor to me. I don't believe the cheapest route is always the best route. But rather cost efficiency. Ie, Do you need a cadillac when a Chevy or VW will do? Regarding use when launching, I always (unless I forget) unplug my trailer wiring harness when I back into the water. Perhaps more out of old habits from days of incandescent lighting. But even LED lights are spliced into the main wire harness. (And I use sealed connections....) I have forgot to unplug once or twice, and no harm done. I agree with the last couple of posts about different strokes for different folks. I think you'll notice I've never really badmouthed surge or EOH. But I do believe electric is better than surge, simply for the reason of more control over your trailer brakes. I also see advantages of EOH over pure electric, however at a much higher price. My consideration for EOH had nothing to do with how the electric held up, but rather I would like to go disc brake, which is not available at this time in pure electric fashion... (FWIW, you are also looking at a bit more tongue weight for surge or EOH...not much but that might make a difference on some smaller SUV's.) Pure electric has continued to work well for me, and I have heard from a few salt users, it has worked for them. It's also the most simplist setup between the three types. Folks will say electricity and water don't mix. My answer to them is neither does oil (hydraulic fluid) and water. Thus I will continue to throw advice for consideration of electric when folks ask. Colby

[anchorout]

I have towed different boats all around the Gulf coast for decades, with surge brakes. For years I pulled a 2ton Cape Dory 25 keel boat from south Texas to Key West. Surge brakes gave me no problems. Saying that, if I had to tow the same boat down long steep grades in the mountains, I would probably move up to EOH brakes. There are so many variables to that decision.

As to brakes or no brakes, when I bought my CD22 there were no brakes on the trailer. My F150 more than handled the braking, BUT, I knew if I ever had an accident, no matter whose fault, the fact that my trailer was not up to legal specs, would put me partially at fault. Does a 16ft boat need brakes? I guess it would if you were towing it with a Harley. But what does Big Brother say?

[Will-C]

Here's is my take on electric brakes. Disc brakes are better than drum brakes any day of the week. Especially in a salt water environment. I've had both believe me winding the stars with a brake spoon is not my idea of fun whether it's electric or hydraulic drums. Removing a bolt or two from a caliper and replacing the brake pads is a lot easier and a lot less moving parts on a disc setup than dealing with shoe replacement on a drum brake setup. Been there done that. Vented discs or any disc brakes cool a lot faster than drums and disc brakes are less effected by water in general. The fact that electric brakes are unavailable in a disc configuration makes them a non starter in my book. As far as the Cadillac analogy goes. I would say that's a little bit out there. We are not talking style here. It's what is a safer better stopping product. I think it's great that you are head over heels about electric brakes. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is I would not recommend drum brakes to anyone. It matters little how they are activated. I have had both and I think drum brakes just suck. Just my opinion.
D.D.

[colbysmith]

Dave, no argument with you there. Disc is by far the better product. Just wish they weren't so expensive.... I'd almost go as far as to say surge disc over electric drum....almost... lol. Colby

[journey on]

What the heck, I'll jump back in though I think this thread is through. And since it's got nothing to do with a C-Dory, I hope that I'll leave some of you bemused, not pissed.

First, lets set a baseline. My first (drivable) car was a '29 Ford Model A. The brakes were drum, front and rear, but rod actuated. That meant the more people in there, the less brakes. The carburetor was updraft with a manual choke rod, no air cleaner. And third, ignition points, which aren't bad, except that the spark plug leads were thin strips of brass. If there was a heavy dew, no start.

So let me list the 3 best improvements in recent automotive history. First, hydraulic disk brakes. For those of you who haven't gone down a hill, loaded, with drum brakes, you've missed a heck of a thrill. Of course, I mean the truck loaded, not the driver. That's another subject.

Second, electronic ignition. Again, some of you may have missed cleaning and setting the points at random intervals in some out of the way dump, but I haven't. And the plugs last forever. Though if the computer takes a dive, it's instant death.

And last, fuel injection. No cleaning the jets, setting the float, adjusting the air screw. No more jiggling the choke or changing the jets for altitude. It's been replaced by the $1000 fuel pump (for GM products,) and random warning lights. But when it works it's awesome.

So nothings perfect and for every plus, there's a few minuses. But the only drum brakes I own are the rear ones on my '63 Chevvy and the travel trailer. Every motor has electronic ignition, including the Honda generator. I still have a few carbs on a couple of oldish bikes. And the lawn mower.

Boris