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A 25 with an Armstrong Bracket
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Ron on Meander



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 561
City/Region: Powell River
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Meander
Photos: Meander
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: A 25 with an Armstrong Bracket Reply with quote

I noticed a C-Dory 25 with an Armstrong Bracket for sale on Yacht World http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2006/C-Dory-25%27-Cruiser-2789139/Bayfield/WI/United-States#.VPu1eWR4r7A. Does anyone know anything about this boat. I have always wondered how a C-Dory would do with a bracket like this. The Rosborough 246 have them and they have a somewhat similar hull to the C-Dory. A bit more of deadrise and a keel but similar. What do you think, would a bracket be a positive addition on a 25 or negative?
Cheers
Ron
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an interesting question Ron. The advantage on the Tom Cat is a considerably larger cockpit. However in this boat, there is an ice chest in the splash well, and apparently no higher transom--unless I am missing something. Also there is no actual floatation in the bracket (again hard to be sure, looking at the photo). (They say "designed to provide neutral buoyancy.) Armstrong makes a very good bracket. The Rosborough 246 does gain cockpit room with the bracket--and it has a more round chine. I have seen both narrow and full transom brackets on the Rosborough 246.

There is a 150 plus a 20 back 2 feet further aft. This equates to more leverage on the transom, and perhaps different handling characteristics. The motor should be mounted a couple of inches higher. I do see a hydrofoil (Permitrim)--I consider this a plus in any C Dory. But wonder if this person put it on because of handling. The comment is made:" The mount was also scalloped for hydrodynamic efficiency and stability in a following sea. " I am not familiar with this technique.

My suggestion is that I don't see a lot of advantage, but it does give a nice big swim step, and diving ladder.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 8650
City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Bob is right on with his assessment.

I'd personally prefer a full enclosed bracket with flotation, but wonder how either one would affect the handling characteristics of the boat, particularly in large seas, and especially in large following seas.

I would really want to test this boat out along with someone who was very familiar with how the original CD-25 handles to evaluate the adaptation out.

Here are the two photos of the bracket in order to facilitate this discussion:



Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up

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"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous
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Ron on Meander



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 561
City/Region: Powell River
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Meander
Photos: Meander
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the pictures Joe. According to the broker write up the boat is supposed to perform "better" than stock. I am quite sceptical of that comment, which is why I was hoping someone here might actually know the boat.
Like you Bob, I can't see the benefit of the bracket unless you also remove the splash well and close in the transom notch. I really like how the bracket works on the Rosborough so I have often wondered if one could be added to Meander without effecting the overall performance too much. If I ever considered doing it, I would remove the splash well and fill in the notch. The added cockpit space would be great to have.
I wonder how the the extra weight further back would affect the performance. Would it cause the boat to porpoise, ride bow high and how would it effect the fuel burn. Of course the cost of doing it would probably just make it more sense to just buy a bigger boat! Shocked
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Tom on Icarus



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 175
City/Region: Campbell River, Vancouver Island
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Tranquil~C
Photos: Tranquil~C
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting post Ron.
I too am always trying to create more space in our boat. That would give another couple of feet if the splashwell were eliminated but......wouldn't you have to have a longer trailer to support that weight hanging out there?
Sounds to me like the expenses would far out weigh the benefits.
Cheers,
Tom

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Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 8650
City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron on Meander wrote:
<much deleted>

" Of course the cost of doing it would probably just make it more sense to just buy a bigger boat! Shocked"


BINGO! Laughing Laughing Laughing

And your resale value would probably be higher that a modified boat, too!

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up
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sdscan



Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 6
City/Region: Bayfield
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Joshua Barney
Photos: Joshua Barney
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This boat was in the slip next to me in Bayfield WI for several seasons a few years ago. I believe the bracket does have flotation. The owner did claim better performance, but I have never been out on it, or seen it out on the water, so I can't comment on his claim.
Steve
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Ron on Meander



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 561
City/Region: Powell River
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Meander
Photos: Meander
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom
The added cockpit space would be most of the reason for me to even consider this. The other would be easier access to the dingy for us and our dog. The trailering and loading would be another issue to figure out. Probably no different than one of the 27 ft C-Dory's.
Joe,
I think the cost is the real deal breaker. If I did this to Meander the only time she would be up for sale would be as an estate sale and then I probably wouldn't care how much she was worth. Laughing
Steve
Interesting that he did claim better performance. Sure would be nice to talk to someone who had been out in the boat.
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Robert H. Wilkinson



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 1231
City/Region: Port Ryerse
State or Province: ON
Vessel Name: Romakeme IV
Photos: Romakeme IV
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Armstrong does make a good bracket and they do offer numerous advantages. And yes if I was ordering a new Rosborough 246 or 22 Sea Skiff, I would consider the $2,000. bracket option money well spent.

BUT,,, I would never alter a Cdory to add one.

First of all, some of their advantages are not necessary or even wanted on a Cdory - such as increased speed.

Secondly some of their advantages such as better low speed maneuvering due to a change in steering geometry(pivot point) are offset by disadvantages - such as prop ventilation(in large seas or high speed turns).

Sometimes finding the engine height sweet spot can be a problem and may require using a jack plate.

I would not add a bracket to a boat unless the manufacturer approved it or it had been tested by numerous other owners. I would also have it installed by a professional who was familiar with their installation. The design must also be boat specific - for example will it be the type that extends your hull?

Improper installation can lead to catastrophic transom damage. The top of the bracket requires numerous through bolts to support the weight. These bolts require substantial backing plates and must be properly sealed to prevent water intrusion into the core. Any boat with a soft transom core such as foam must have the holes overdrilled and reinforced with an insert to prevent the torque of the tightened bolts from crushing the core.

Advantages? Yes

Disadvantages? Yes

On a Cdory? Not IMHO

Regards, Rob

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for trailering--since the bracket is not full hull depth (at least as I can see), you would use a "normal" C Dory 25 trailer, There would be more leveraged on the transom. You could make a modified "Transom Saver"--I have used one of these on the Caracal, !8 CC. It does work as advertised.


One issue, might be that the bracket, would interfere with the geometry of the "Transom Saver" Putting an extension of the trailer frame has other disadvantages.
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MilesandMiles



Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 335

State or Province: MN
C-Dory Year: 1992
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: MilesandMiles
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This boat is in the same marina I keep my boat (Washburn) I always wondered if C-dory made a one-off 25ET (it's the only one I've ever seen, even in pictures)

I don't know much about it, other than it looks really clean in person. Though it's not the same boat, my Hewescraft 22 is an extended transom, and it makes the boat feel bigger than 22 feet.

I'll be up in Washburn this Friday. If it's parked out where a lot of other boats winter over, I can take some pictures of close up spots (outside of course)
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Ron on Meander



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 561
City/Region: Powell River
State or Province: BC
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Meander
Photos: Meander
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miles & Miles
That would be really cool if you have a chance to get so additional pics. Like you I have not seen another 25 with a bracket even in pictures. Seems interesting though. How do you like the bracket on your Hewes?
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Robert H. Wilkinson



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 1231
City/Region: Port Ryerse
State or Province: ON
Vessel Name: Romakeme IV
Photos: Romakeme IV
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Robert H. Wilkinson"] On a Cdory? Not IMHO, quote]

Is it OK if I argue with myself on this forum? Laughing Just wanted to say that I have been following the work Travis has been doing refitting the Great Republic. Great work on a beautiful boat, by the way. On that Cdory the bracket was a logical choice. It did have a full transom to start with though.

As for the CD25 in this thread - like Joe said, I would love to hear the opinion of anyone who is familiar with a stock Cd25 comparing it to this one with the bracket.

Regards, Rob
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MilesandMiles



Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 335

State or Province: MN
C-Dory Year: 1992
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: MilesandMiles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron on Meander wrote:
Miles & Miles
That would be really cool if you have a chance to get so additional pics. Like you I have not seen another 25 with a bracket even in pictures. Seems interesting though. How do you like the bracket on your Hewes?


No problem. What would you like me to focus in on? I THINK it's still in the same parking spot I saw it a few months ago. The weather has been great here.

Hewes: When it's in the water, I love it. When towing it for any distance, can be stressful. The CD22 is such an easy boat to manage. The Hewescraft PC22ET weighs 6800 #'s (package) and is wider, so I really have to pay a lot of attention back there. It has the Yamaha F150, and it's a great, reliable motor with superb MPG's…but a 225 or 250 should be back there. I know, first world problems Smile

I'll post those pics early next week.
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mathias999us



Joined: 28 Mar 2015
Posts: 52
City/Region: Forest Lake
State or Province: MN
C-Dory Year: 2009
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Venture Bound
Photos: Venture Bound
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I drove 210 miles from the twin cities to see this boat last Tuesday. Very clean and nice boat, well outfitted. The bracket was a big plus in my book. I have kids that like to swim off the back of our current boat, and it would have been great for boarding the inflatable and strapping my honda eu2000i out there. I will admit, it was a little awkward having to step through the motor well to get into the cockpit. Sort of an unfinished feel to it. If you look carefully in the pics above, you can see that the bracket is indeed full hull depth, and it has been painted with bottom paint, continuing the same lines from the hull.

I actually put in an offer on this boat, but when the seller received the offer from the broker, apparently he suddenly decided not to sell the boat, and will be removing the listing. Very disappointing for us as we really liked the boat.... But perhaps it's for the best considering some of the comments here about the bracket. The search continues...
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