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flapbreaker



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sealife I have the same BEP switch setup on a Single engine (boat new in august). I recently had a problem that I didn't expect. Launched the boat and when I went to start the motor I got nothing. Not even an ignition light. I was and still am puzzled as to how there wasn't enough juice to start the main since the VSR (voltage sensitive relay) is supposed to isolate the two batteries to prevent this. Lucky for me I have a trolling motor wired to the house battery so I pull started it and let it run for a couple minutes. Then I tried the main and it worked. Needless to say I'm still confused about this BEP setup and just what the heck it's doing for me even after reading the details on their website.
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Sealife



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

According to the post above mine and the tutorial, and what I have always understood in the past, 11.9 is discharged. My old boat never ran below 12.55, even after being idle for a couple of weeks. It only had a manual bilge pump. Now the automatic bilge pump....that might be something. When yours cycles on, can you hear it, or is it just an electronic test it does. I have never heard it cycle on, except when I wash down the cockpit and it gets enough water to activate it. I also have a pump in the little depression in the stern, and I believe that one is wired directly to the batteries, so perhaps when it was raining this past week, there was enough water flowing past and out the drain hole to make it cycle. I'll have to look into that.

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Dora~Jean



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

If it were my boat, I'd take the time to draw out a schematic, wire by wire, to see how they're hooked up and the voltage isolator hookups including symbol directions on each. It's possible there is a miswire, could happen.

Also, static battery voltage varies with ambient temperature, colder is lower. It's been colder than usual lately, perhaps...? Lastly, if wired incorrectly and the batteries are all in parallel, all it takes is one or more of them to be slightly different (all are inherently different), then one battery will try to charge the other which could fairly quickly drain both or all if they're not being charged or trickle charged during that period. Just some thoughts.

Steve
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Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike-

Was the boat specifically set up for twins by the factory, or just produced as a generic boat w/o commitment to a single or twin engines? Who installed the engines, the factory or the dealer?

There is a problem that must be overcome with twin engine installations. If they are parallelled so that both engines are charging the same battery or batteries, the voltage regulators of each engine cannot accurately gauge the condition of the battery(s) it is trying to charge because of the voltage being applied by the other engine, which is trying to charge at the same time.

The usual solution to the above problem is to have each engine charge its own starting battery, and then make some provision for house power, either by using a third battery and/ or a battery combiner, battery isolator, or some such solution.

Do you have a diagram of the system set up in your boat by the factory? Is your set up exactly he same, or is it modified? Steve's suggestion that you draw out a diagram will be a great value in understanding your system and what could be wrong with it. Are there any "black box" electronic components that you can't see inside or don't know how they operate? These can complicate the development of an understanding of what's going on, of course.

You've had this boat rigged like this for a couple of years, right? If the system were rigged in a faulty or wrong manner, it should have given you trouble long before now.

When batteries get old, they begin to loose their ability to hold their charge. Usually one will fail before the other, even if they are the same age. Left in parallel, the weak one will draw the stronger one down to at least its own level., and if it's discharging internally, they'll go down together indefinitely. With the switch left in parallel for the first time for an extended period, it sounds like this is the probable cause.


The Rule automatic pumps have a timer in them that turns them on every two minutes or so to check for water in the bilge. If the electronic "brain" controlling the pump senses considerable current flow because the impeller is pushing water, it stays on until the load drops. If the load is light, meaning that the impeller is spinning in air, it shuts the pump off for another cycle. The regular automatic pumps have a cycle of about two minutes, and the Premium series will switch over to a 10 minute cycle after not finding any bilge water for a cycle or two. The drain from these pumps is virtually negligable unless there's water in the bilge.

You might charge the batteries with an external charger, and then, with each of them isolated, check their voltage over a week's period to see how their individual voltage drops and if they are equal in their performance. You might also test each one independently under moderate loads to see how they perform and if one seems weak.

Joe.

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Sealife



Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just spoke with Scott Matherws at the factory. My boat is pretty new....August of 2005. The wiring is a factory deal. Both batteries, group 24, are crammed into the starboard lazerette with Bep switches and a Bus relay breaker for the electronics. The only way to remove the batteries, is to remove the cover frame for the lazerette. One of the batteries is so hard to get to, I can't even check it's water level. The way Scott explained the installation, each engine is tied to a seperate battery for starting, and that the electronics are tied only to the deep cycle battery. Supposedly, when the engines are on, both batteries get charged, but when the engines are off, the starting battery is isolated from the deep cycle battery which powers the house (electronics). The battery charger, and both bilge pumps, I think, are wired directly to the batteries.

Good advice, Steve, I either going to do it myself, or have someone map my system. When it stops raining here, (yes, sometimes it does rain in So. Cal) I'll have to go down to the boat and run the charger all day to bring them back up, then see if they stay that way. Question: with a multimeter, and everthing turned off, is there a way to see if a battery is leaking voltage?
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terraplane



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: battery questions from a battery dummy Reply with quote

This is tom/terraplane...been wanting to check out some things for some time, and now that there are some battery gurus on line here....

22 cd, new in 2005. Sally's Sister..been great no problems. Standard factory setup. mostly, but.Guest 10amp Charge Pro, two Optima blue top batteries, Perko switch (1,2,all, off) Shore power...

l. Should shore power be used just spoadically,; does it harm batteries to leave it hooked up for longer periods..couple of weeks?

2.When starting, do i start always with just one battery, and use the other just for house use? Or do I start with both on.

3.Do I shut off batteries when i'm at the dock for several days.

4. My batteries on on the deck, secured, between the gas tanks, sitting in trays and strapped down, just in front of the second bilge pump in stern. Water tends to collect in the black plastic trays..is this harming the batteries.

Guess that's it...any comments welcomed.

tom
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Sealife



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom,

Only one of your questions can I help you with, and that's the one about the location of your batteries. It's ok to have them on the deck (although not preferable), but they should be enclosed in battery boxes to protect them from water and the elements. The reason for having them off the deck is that in the case of a boarding sea flooding the cockpit, it won't drown out you power. The battery boxes are supposedly designed to trap iar under the lid to prevent this, but I'd not want to depend on it.
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Pat Anderson



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: battery questions from a battery dummy Reply with quote

Tom - disclaimer, I am no expert, just repeating what folks have told me, and if I am wrong, well, I trust somebody here will straighten us both out.

1. There is nothing wrong with leaving the shore power and charger connected all the time. The charger shuts off the charge when it senses the batteries are fully charged. The Optima (and virtually all batteries except NiCads) are best maintainted at a full charge all the time.

2. One battery should be dedicated to starting and the other dedicated to the house - the batteries should not be connected in the "Both" position except when the starting battery is too low to start the motor(s)

3. You do not need to shut the batteries off, but shutting them off at the swithc protects against anything that might be drawing power and could run them down.


terraplane wrote:
This is tom/terraplane...been wanting to check out some things for some time, and now that there are some battery gurus on line here....

22 cd, new in 2005. Sally's Sister..been great no problems. Standard factory setup. mostly, but.Guest 10amp Charge Pro, two Optima blue top batteries, Perko switch (1,2,all, off) Shore power...

l. Should shore power be used just spoadically,; does it harm batteries to leave it hooked up for longer periods..couple of weeks?

2.When starting, do i start always with just one battery, and use the other just for house use? Or do I start with both on.

3.Do I shut off batteries when i'm at the dock for several days.

4. My batteries on on the deck, secured, between the gas tanks, sitting in trays and strapped down, just in front of the second bilge pump in stern. Water tends to collect in the black plastic trays..is this harming the batteries.

Guess that's it...any comments welcomed.

tom

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Sea Wolf



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: battery questions from a battery dummy Reply with quote

[quote="terraplane"]This is tom/terraplane...been wanting to check out some things for some time, and now that there are some battery gurus on line here....

22 cd, new in 2005. Sally's Sister..been great no problems. Standard factory setup. mostly, but.Guest 10amp Charge Pro, two Optima blue top batteries, Perko switch (1,2,all, off) Shore power...

l. Should shore power be used just spoadically,; does it harm batteries to leave it hooked up for longer periods..couple of weeks?

If your charger is a proper three stage one and for marine use, it will reduce the charge given to the batteries automatically and there is no danger of overcharging them. On the contrary, the very small trickle or float charge protects them at their optimum state. The properly installed shore power system shouldn't be a problem if left turned on to do this.


2.When starting, do i start always with just one battery, and use the other just for house use? Or do I start with both on.

You can start with either one if the one you're using is fully charged. If they are both down a bit, use them both. If one is really down, leave it out of use as it will just drag the other battery and starting system down. You want to start with as much voltage as you can muster. Low voltage starts are hard on the starting motor because the low voltage doesn't produce as much torque, and as a result, excessive amperage flows through the starter, resulting in heat build up. If both batteries are weak and you can tell the starting motor is straining and not turning close to normal speed, charge the batteries before you try to start the motor again. Too much heat and you'll throw the solder out of the armature windings, ruining the starter.


3.Do I shut off batteries when i'm at the dock for several days.

This depends on what you're doing, and what you mean by being at the dock for several days..occupied or unoccupied? As discussed above, if you leave the charger on, you're generally better off, as long as you regularly check on the system.

If you'll be periodically using the 12 volt system, you need to leave the charger on to replace the used capacity.

If, on the other hand, you'll be leaving the boat unoccupied and with no current drain, you can shut the batteries and charger off just for peace of mind, knowing that everything is at rest.


4. My batteries on on the deck, secured, between the gas tanks, sitting in trays and strapped down, just in front of the second bilge pump in stern. Water tends to collect in the black plastic trays..is this harming the batteries.

Answered just fine my Mike above!

Another common question regards leaving the shore power and charger systems on while you're away to be able to recharge the batteries which are being used by the bilge pumps.

For very small usage, the batteries will be just fine operating the pumps without recharging.

If it is felt or found out that they will need recharging during the absence period, the shore power and charging systems can be left on. I would, however, disconnect any appliances about which I had any misgivings about being left on line, even though they are turned off at the switch. This is done mostly for peace of mind, as we leave these things plugged in all the time at home with the switches off. I particularly unplug the electric heater and get it up off the floor where water could get to it if the bilge pumps fail.

Joe


Last edited by Sea Wolf on Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Norm S



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is probably the best explanation I have found on battery wiring and use. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/dualBattery.html One other small note re charging. A few yrs ago at an aviation maint seminar I had a chance to talk with a battery rep. according to him it is the charge / discharge cycles that eventually kill a battery. (The lead sulfates sluff off of the plates and when they build up enough in the bottom they short out the cell) The more a battery can be kept topped off the longer it will last. some sort of a charger / maintainer is a good idea whenever the boat is where it can be plugged in. Just MHO
Norm

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oldgrowth



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
is there a way to see if a battery is leaking voltage?

To check for external items that may be drawing current;

1. Make sure everything is off
2. Disconnect a lead to the battery. (doesn’t matter which one)
3. Hook a voltmeter in series with the battery lead and the battery terminal.
4. The voltmeter will have a voltage reading if you have anything drawing current.

Your question about my bilge pump. I can hear it when it cycles.

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Last edited by oldgrowth on Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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capneo



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also consider a small solar panel to maintain unattended batteries, instead of shore power, or if shore power is unavailable.
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Dora~Jean



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norm,
Great find on the battery connection schematics reference. I use the "New" Dual Battery, dual engine setup. The engines are hardwired each to their own battery and the 1-2-BOTH-OFF switch common terminal goes to the cabin electronics. I alternate on trips between selecting battery 1 and battery 2, but try to always keep one battery at full charge at all times (I do not hook to shore power, rarely at dock except at get-togethers!).

Dave,
The voltmeter between the unhooked cable and battery will work, but if you have a multimeter, use the "amperage" function (connect the leads on the meter correctly), select a higher than you think range first then range down to avoid blowing the fuse in the meter (don't ask how I know this...). That will give you a measurement. I'd say 40 ma (0.040 amps) is too high as a steady current. When on a low range, be careful if/when the bilge pump cycles, could blow that fuse in the meter...

I run a very, very small trickle charger while boat is at home in between trips, usually 3-4 wks. It puts out a constant voltage, thus the amps (less than 1a max) goes down as the battery voltage goes up. It's the cheapest charger I think in the world, about $6.00 at Harbor Freight on sale. I put the battery switch in the BOTH position while it is hooked up to this charger, both batteries stabilize about 13.2-13.5 volts -- it is OK to connect in parallel as long as they're being charged. A bit higher than I'd like in voltage, but seems to be no harm. Solar panel(s) would also work fine. My batteries are nearly 4 yrs old now, still good energy capacity (where's that piece of wood...). I also run dual Link 10 monitors to keep an eye on everything.

Steve
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Sealife



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve,

First, I found the Whaler site with those layout prior to my visit to the factory to work with the rigger. Took them with me, but he did not like them, saying, if I remember correctly, that the engine mfgs would not approve , and that they were for larger engines. As far as them being for larger engines, it is true that the BEP config for twin engines comes with a qualification that it only works for larger engines (over 200hp). That qualification is right on their site.

Am frustrated in not being abel to go down to the boat to solve this problem due to rain. Problem with shore power battery charger is that it takes an expensive adapter to mate it to a standard extension cord for charging while on it's trailer. Marinco is $50; I found one for $35.
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ffheap



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

I have two batteriess, and both are the same. (I have to look up what type they are.) I heard that you should have both batteries the same, and use only one at a time. I have no problem starting with the batteries I have. I have them on a three way switch, Battery A, Battery B, and both. If one battery gets used to much, like reading all night, I can start the engine with the good battery, and then switch through both batteries to the bad one, and let the engine charge it. I have a meter that, with a push of a button, can tell me the condition of the battery that I am presently using.

The reason for the same batteries. I have heard that you might have problems when you switch from one battery THROUGH both batteries to the second battery if they are not the same.

This has worked very well for me.

Fred Heap

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