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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Hunkydory wrote: | | The purchase does leave me with a much lessor opinion of Manson anchors & the selling retailer Defender. |
Jay,
Ugh, I can empathize with the feeling of getting something that doesn't seem quite up to snuff, but then for various reasons not returning it (schedule, hassle). Something in bad shape should never have been shipped in the first place, so you wouldn't have been put in that position.
That said, perhaps you could contact Stephan at Defender. Again, not that it should have to come to this (and maybe you have already contacted him), but Stephan is the owner of Defender (I believe; the company was started by his parents), and from what I have seen is a great guy to go to for customer service. My hunch is that he would step up to make things right. As much as I hate retuning things, I would give it a whirl rather than having that slight feeling of distaste every time I handled my (brand new!) anchor (at least for myself, that would linger).
I bought a 15# Supreme last year (I buy a lot of things through Defender, but I think I got it from Fisheries as I was in the PNW) and I thought the work on it was good.
Sunbeam |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fortress Anchors wrote: |
Just a quick note to advise that ...
Safe anchoring,
Brian Sheehan
Fortress Marine Anchors |
Brian,
Welcome to C-Brats! It's great to have a manufacturer stop by and contribute. I've been thinking about a Fortress or Guardian for my secondary/spare/stern anchor on my 22, but as of yet have not been able to decide between the two. Either of them will stow a lot easier than what I'm using now (10# Claw knock-off that I got for temporary use until I decide on the "real" one), and that compact stowage will be a big plus on a small boat. |
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Chester
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1176
City/Region: home
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sold to lovely couple
Photos: Chester
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Hunkydory wrote: | ...& touch up paint around the welded on tips of the flukes, I believe this was an anchor that had been previously sold by & then returned to Defender. This combined with the flaking off in spots of the galvanized coating & little if not any grinding to smooth out the area along the welds made for a disappointing first impression of this Manson Boss anchor. I would not have bought it directly from the store like this & didn't just return it due to the hassle of shipping & a trip planned before exchange could be made. The purchase does leave me with a much lessor opinion of Manson anchors & the selling retailer Defender. Photos can be deceiving, but the photo appearance of Bob's 10 lb Boss is what I was expecting to receive with the 25 lb Manson Boss.
Jay |
Manson apparently had a batch with bad galvanizing that should never have left the plant. The tough up paint you see is prolly cold galvanizing from a spray can. Suggest you buy a can and stay on top of those spots to keep rust at bay.
You are right about the return being a hassle. I had a series of increasingly unpleasant emails with Defender and Schaefer Marine, the distributor, where they implied I didn't know not to drop the anchor off the top of the Empire State Building or store it in boiling acid. OK, small exaggeration...
They wanted to send me a can of galvanizing spray rather than replace the anchor. The process took weeks and then I had to pay $65 shipping to send it back. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20815
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Foggy wrote: | Besides anchor anatomy and how it affects seabed retention,
an important factor, yet mentioned here, is cross sectional area
of the rode attached to the anchor shank.
My understanding is, on the seabed, a thick fat rode (chain or
worse, a thick nylon line) will bury less efficiently than a thin wire.
The rode with greater cross sectional area will lie more on the
surface of the seabed affecting the angle of pull on the anchor shank.
This directly affects anchor retention as a deeper buried rode
allows the anchor to stay in a more desired location whereas a rode
closer to the seabed surface, or worse on the surface of the seabed,
will tend to pull the anchor out as the surface vessel exerts vertical
unseating forces.
As the boat swings, this rode thickness factor is also important in
maintaining a set anchor, or not, as the the forces become lateral
to the anchor shank.
This explains the emergence of new rodes made from wire and high
tech, tough materials (Dyneema et al) thinner than traditional bulky
link chain.
Aye. |
Well Foggy, I have to disagree with you on a number of counts. Where did you get this information? First the cable as an anchor rode has been used for a very long time, both in commercial ships, and some larger pleasure vessels. If you were to look at the fishing boats off the West Coast of Mexico, they have been using cable on reel winches for about over 60 years (and that is the extent of my knowledge of when they started using cables, which may have been long before).
There are many disadvantages of cables--including that you cannot attach a snubber, they do not have elasticity. Even the boats with cables, use a short piece of heavy chain, and then lighter chain, for some of the sea bed effect which you seem to feel is detrimental. In fact having had the opportunity to dive on many anchors I find that they bury very well with chain and nylon rodes. You contradict your self, by saying that they are not good because they don't bury, yet they will prevent the anchor from pulling out when the boat shifts angle with wind and current.
Large ships anchor with all chain (and spring shock absorbers). The reason is that the large chain's resistance to the sea bed gives part of the holding power of the anchor system--where the anchor is relitatively small, both in weight and fluke area.
In poor cohesion mud the resistance of chain keeps the anchor from pulling too rapidly thru the mud, and allows the anchor to assume the proper attitude to pull down thru the poor cohesion mud int a substrait such as clay or sand, which has better holding. Also the drag of chain in the sea bed helps to keep the anchor from pulling out, as the catenary of the chain straightens out during gusts, or at high wind velocity.
For many small craft the large anchor reel for either the cable or the synthetic high tensile strength lines, takes a large amount of deck room. They are also impossible to attach snubbers or other shock absorbers. They are very difficult to handle even with gloves on.
On the the Fortress issue. Brian and I have exchanged PM. I took the information from page 215 of the West Marine catalogue 214, which is a bit misleading. They list the weight of the anchor first--and put the Fortress number at the end of the line. I was going by the weight of the anchor--which is not the fortress number: For example the 7 lb fortress is called the FX 11. The 4 lb fortress is called the FX 7. Same for the Guardian. My mistake. Thank you.
I believe I answered Boris's comment--in that the anchor forms an angle to the sea bed as it digs in and like the Manson Supreme, it will do well in mud and sand. My testing in the past was in mud and sand, and the Manson did the best, including a larger Fortress. No reason that the Boss should not do as well as the Supreme.
My version of the Boss had good galvanizing--the welds were not quite as nice as I excepted, but looked good.
_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1521
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| thataway wrote: | | Foggy wrote: | Besides anchor anatomy and how it affects seabed retention,
an important factor, yet mentioned here, is cross sectional area
of the rode attached to the anchor shank.
My understanding is, on the seabed, a thick fat rode (chain or
worse, a thick nylon line) will bury less efficiently than a thin wire.
The rode with greater cross sectional area will lie more on the
surface of the seabed affecting the angle of pull on the anchor shank.
This directly affects anchor retention as a deeper buried rode
allows the anchor to stay in a more desired location whereas a rode
closer to the seabed surface, or worse on the surface of the seabed,
will tend to pull the anchor out as the surface vessel exerts vertical
unseating forces.
As the boat swings, this rode thickness factor is also important in
maintaining a set anchor, or not, as the the forces become lateral
to the anchor shank.
This explains the emergence of new rodes made from wire and high
tech, tough materials (Dyneema et al) thinner than traditional bulky
link chain.
Aye. |
Well Foggy, I have to disagree with you on a number of counts. Where did you get this information? First the cable as an anchor rode has been used for a very long time, both in commercial ships, and some larger pleasure vessels. If you were to look at the fishing boats off the West Coast of Mexico, they have been using cable on reel winches for about over 60 years (and that is the extent of my knowledge of when they started using cables, which may have been long before).
There are many disadvantages of cables--including that you cannot attach a snubber, they do not have elasticity. Even the boats with cables, use a short piece of heavy chain, and then lighter chain, for some of the sea bed effect which you seem to feel is detrimental. In fact having had the opportunity to dive on many anchors I find that they bury very well with chain and nylon rodes. You contradict your self, by saying that they are not good because they don't bury, yet they will prevent the anchor from pulling out when the boat shifts angle with wind and current.
Large ships anchor with all chain (and spring shock absorbers). The reason is that the large chain's resistance to the sea bed gives part of the holding power of the anchor system--where the anchor is relitatively small, both in weight and fluke area.
In poor cohesion mud the resistance of chain keeps the anchor from pulling too rapidly thru the mud, and allows the anchor to assume the proper attitude to pull down thru the poor cohesion mud int a substrait such as clay or sand, which has better holding. Also the drag of chain in the sea bed helps to keep the anchor from pulling out, as the catenary of the chain straightens out during gusts, or at high wind velocity.
For many small craft the large anchor reel for either the cable or the synthetic high tensile strength lines, takes a large amount of deck room. They are also impossible to attach snubbers or other shock absorbers. They are very difficult to handle even with gloves on.
SNIP |
Whoa, Bob. Please, take your sights off me. I am not recommending
cable, don't use it and don't plan to. I don't care about its history.
I am simply mentioning what is going on as things change over time,
in this industry regarding this topic. Check out some back issues of
"Practical Sailor" if you're inclined.
Instead of microanalyzing anchors, if anyone is having problems with this
process (few seem to, more say what works for them) my recommendation
for your primary ground tackle would be to increase the size of the anchor
that works for you and use at least 2X your boat length of chain with nylon
for the rest.
Aye.
_________________
"I don't want any cake" - said no one ever.
If someone tells you they don't eat cake, unfriend them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20815
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the good laugh foggy.
I don't have any problems with anchors, but do like to try and give my reports to others, so that they may find solutions to their problems.
I base my decisions on many years of boating and many thousands of nights at anchor, not what some fellow writes in Practical Sailor--Which I subscribed to for only a short time. |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1521
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Bob, have you put all your years of experience and knowledge in a book to
share your opinions and findings including those that contradict writers who
publish or do you prefer limited audiences on blogs like this?
If you have a book, please inform me and I'll purchase a copy.
Aye. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20815
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Foggy,
What authors do I contradict? Please be specific. Do I think that a lot of the material in Practical sailor is a waste of time--yes. I choose a long time ago not to take my time writing about our travels and experiences. I was asked by an NPR Station to do a weekly video show as we traveled for 4 years that is a huge time commitment. I declined. (However we did make videos and slide shows which were presented on the professional lecture circuits for a few years. For many years I gave cruising seminars and presentations at various yacht clubs. After that I did a number of Presentations at Trawler Fest (before it was sold to :Passage Maker magazine, and they used only their authors.) I also gave a number of lectures at SSCA meetings and wrote a number of letters in their bulletins during the years I was A commodore member. Many panels I have been on were with people who have written books. I also wrote a booklet on medicine at sea, and allowed SSCA to sell until I resigned. I was asked to update one of the common medicine at sea books--however upon my review, and several colleagues review--we decided it needed a complete re-write--and the company was only willing to pay $200 and they didn't want to spend the money necessary for a compete revision.
I don't know if you have written any sailing books, but I suspect not. I have friends who have, and it is very time consuming and expensive, even with self publishing. I have proof read and edited books some of my friends wrote. As far as books on Anchoring Earl Hinz contacted me about several anchors, and suggestions for his last edition on Anchoring and Mooring.
Steve Dashew cornered the market on book writing with his encyclopedic books, and videos--now his excellent series of blogs. I have had some input into several of his publications--specifically the one on heavy weather sailing. Unfortunately the weather fax charts which I had taken during a 9 day hurricane wind force storm crossing the Atlantic East bound, were on wet thermal paper, and they did not survive--so I could not-show the entire system's actions. I have had a few articles in Lattitude 38 back many years ago.
I know a number of authors, and long distance cruisers who scratch their head, and say "oh Damn" I have to have another chapter or column out in a week. Not the way to live a relaxing life.
In your recommendation of "increase the size of the anchor which works for you and use at least 2x your boat length of chain." That is a bit naive. There are anchors which work far better under specific conditions--thus the well equipped cruising boat has several anchors to choose from, rather than just get one big anchor. Not that a storm anchor is un-necessary. So far the anchor which is closest to ideal is the Super Max. It is difficult to stow, and does not work specifically well in sea grass. All of the anchors, and which type works best is a subject for another day.
As far as C Brats and a half a dozen other boating forms, (as well as few RV blogs, I choose to take the time where I feel I can do the most good educating boaters as they come along in their endeavors. I happen to like both the C Dory boat, and really enjoy the wonderful people who make up The C brat extended family. A lot of the C Dory experience is not just the boats, but sharing genuine friendship with those who are active in the club. Hopefuly you will join in that activity and get to know the members in person. |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 1521
City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Bob
Sorry for my delay. I've been working which may seem strange to some.
Not meant to be derogatory but after your previous catharsis, I am getting
a better picture of what's up here.
You are correct. I have made mistakes and posted errors. Sorry about that.
Few have responded except you. But that is fine with me.
There seems to be more than a few followers of yours here on this blog who
are more than a little impressed with your posts, credentials and experience
you continually insert for all to absorb. And be clear I feel no sense of
competition with you as it is so obvious who would come out on top. I am
certain more than a few C-Brats are very grateful for your generous comments
and helpful suggestions.
What is emerging here, it seems to me, is a picture of a big fish in a small
pond.
The interesting thing is "why", with your self-proclaimed decades of nautical
technical to feet-on-the-deck experiences and know how, and thousands of
boating days of anchoring out, logging untold thousands of sea miles in who
knows how many places, why would you not be cow-towing with the big dogs
like the Richard Bertrams, Dennis Conners, Gary Jobsons, Steve Dashews, Jimmy
Spithills and Ted Turners of the world? (I know some have passed on but that's
not the point here.) It seems that blokes of their ilk, some who courageously
put their experience and knowledge in the written word, or better in hard form,
would provide you with much more stimulating conversation, questions and
challenges than hanging out and being omnipresent on C-Brats. You might
even learn something from these types.
Instead, you elect to be here with us; you discredit those who have put their
ideas into form, published books and/or articles being the undisputed authority
of your own with us - the unknowns and less experienced. To trivialize anchor
testing from recognized marine centers and conduct your own "experiments"
on the same made my day and speaks for itself.
Again, I ask "why?". To run with the big dogs means you would be required to
ratchet things up a notch or so, be under their scrutiny at a higher level of
expertise and, if your comments or opinions were challenged, you would need
to answer. You don't have to do that here. In essence, you are "the word".
I have reached my own conclusion as to "why" you choose to do what you do in
this matter which I will keep to myself and let others draw their own conclusion.
Aye. |
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westward
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 718
City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1985
C-Dory Model: 16 Angler
Vessel Name: TBD
Photos: Steady Eddy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Foggy: I would submit that a clear picture is also emerging of you. Maybe not one you'll be proud of when you have a chance to do some self-assessment at a later date. I'm looking for an anchoring system for my new boat (not a C-dory) and am very interested in Bob's thoughts on the matter, as well as input from other sources. He's been of real service to me and others for quite a while, and one of the reasons I still use this site even though I went a completely different direction with my latest boat purchase. Not really sure what your contribution will be but hopefully the tone will improve. Mike on Westward |
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Will-C
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 2476
City/Region: Temple
State or Province: PA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Will-C
Photos: Will-C
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: Supreme Boss 10 lb anchor review |
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I think someone might have missed a few things along the way. First I don't worship Dr. Bob but I do like the fact that is a C-Brat. Him being a Doctor and with a lot of experience with both motor and sailboats I value his opinion and think he deserves my respect. I don't think any of us needs to have a reason to be here. I don't know Dr. Bob all that well outside of a few dinners together. From my point of view anyway he is a kind, thoughtful man who always is ready to help people here on this site and in person. He has invited myself and countless others to visit him at his home near Pensacola Florida. He certainly has more experience boating and fixing them than most. Someone told me there is a reason you have two ears and one mouth. I often think about responses to things that I don't agree with or might be funny in a snarky way but most of the time I try to think will my post really serve a purpose. So if anyone wonders about Dr. Bob's motivations or intentions I think they need to look at what their own contributions to the C-Brat community and are their posts really relevant. I don't always agree with Dr. Bob I did what Foggy suggested got a heavier anchor (Manson Supreme #25 and went to 50' of chain with 250' of eight plait rode and it cost me a pile. 
D.D.
_________________
Chevrolet The Heart Beat Of America |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20815
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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First I want to apologize to the C Brat community that this thread has been highjacked. I will start a separate thread on the testing of the Boss 10 lb when I get one of my boats in the water. Currently I am doing some upgrades on the 22, which were put off by health problems during the last year.
Foggy,
Thank your for your thoughts. You do not know me, my background and you might be surprised at who "of the "big dogs", including several you mentioned, who are personal friends of mine. My choice not to publish is a personal one which I posted above. I was blessed when I was young to be tutored by some well published sailors in the 1940's after WWII.
I have two motivations for posting on this specific list--one is to try and give back to the boating community some knowledge which has been passed along to me by very kind sailors along the journey of life, and to enjoy the fellowship of this wonderful extended family. I find the C Dory, and the group of people associated with these boats to be truly exceptional.
I also use my real name, and my home is always open to C Brats.
Regards,
Bob Austin, Pensacola, FL |
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