Torqeedo 1003 as Kicker/dinghy motor

[Aurelia]

Just ordered a small 22 dollar (ebay) 12v to 24v 5 amp step up DC converter to nearly double the charge rate for the Torqeedo battery from my 12v house bank. The unit is limited to 120W which is the limit for charging. Using a higher amp converter should not provide any benefit and may damage the Torqeedo battery from what I have read. I will test it and post results when I get a chance.

Greg

[Don and Brenda]

Hi Greg

Good info on the 12-24 stepup, that would be good. I cannot believe that Torqeedo does not have their own 120-12 volt converter. We literally got the motor put the stuff on the boat and took off for Desolation last year. This year I will retire in 57 days but who's counting! Then we will move to Washington and be near the boat to properly set it up, hoping for the Broughtons this year and Alaska next year.

Don

[thataway]

Greg,
The Bluetooth module and cables are $149 in the 2014 catalogue
http://www.torqeedo.com/images/kataloge/TQ_Katalog_US.pdf
I suspect it plugs into the tiller/throttle plug, and then there is a plug on the module for the tiller to plug into. It would be handy if you were steering the boat remotely and could not look at the LCD panel on the tiller assemble--on the other hand, I don't think I want to be holding my I phone in one hand, and steering with the other...

Have you verified with anyone who is using the 24 volt charger? My concern is that the literature addresses 4 amps at 12 volts as being max charge. at 24 volts, you are over the 4 amps at 120 watt charge- As I recollect the Sydney experiment discussed 120 watts output from solar panels (you might get the 120 watts at a higher voltage, with 4 amps), but the manual states the factory (Torqeedo) solar panel charge is max 4 amps--but max voltage is 58 volts (Idle voltage output from the solar panel) The higher output mains charger is 85 watts. Is that 24 volt output?
The worry is that if you exceed 4 amps, the fuse inside the battery case blows, and then the battery goes back to the factory ($$) for replacement)

The 12 volt cable is easy to make--it is just a cig lighter or battery clamps, a 4 amp fuse, and then the plug for the battery pack, which is a standard Radio Shack barrel type of plug (5.5/2/5mm).

Boris--Torqeedo calls speed control a "throttle" in the binnacle mount. I have called the twist grip speed control in trolling motors the "throttle". The LCD panel reads "current consumption"--which I believe to be output from the battery/input to the motor.

The catalogue says 80% of battery power at 9 years, no more than 4% loss a year. It will be interesting to see how these new battery units hold up.

The catalogue shows interesting yearly cost ($) for the 80 hp Deep Blue (initial cost is $19,999 for the 80 hp motor and $32,998 for 2 batteries) Sounds as if the break even point is going to be commercial fairly short range applications. Or someone who builds their own battery packs. Who is the billionaire who wants to put a Torqeedo 80 hp in the C Dory?

[Aurelia]

I may have ordered the converter a bit to quick. It looks like I may be limited to 4 amps and not 5 although the unit I ordered is only rated for 120w..... I need to do more reading and thinking on this.

http://thetorqeedoshop.com.au/range-extension-options-for-torqeedo-1003-and-ultralight/

[Don and Brenda]

The way we use the motor I typically use about 4% cruising around anchorages. Usually we are at a marina every 2-3 days and charge off the batteries, so have never had a problem with the capacity of the battery. I like the fact that I can take the battery off and stow it along with the control arm. This makes it much more secure when away from the boat

The reverse came in real handy when shore tieing in the dark with a wind blowing, the motor has to be turned around on other motors. The motor has a lot of torque which I found out the hard way during first time use, so easy on the throttle is wise.

I recall a boat putting his older Honda on his dinghy, could not get it started, finally in a cloud of smoke and lots of noise it turned over. We just got in the boat and took off almost silent.

[thataway]

Greg,
Yes, that is the link to what I refer to as the Sydney experiment, where the quote is

[journey on]

The Torqueedo is interesting. It is ideal for a harbor dinghy, since it has a DC motor. The following figure illustrates that a permanent magnet (PM) DC motor makes maximum torque at stall (0 RPM) so if you crank open the "throttle" when you're sitting still, you get a lot of push. No, that's not the Torqueedo motor, just a typical torque and power curve for a PM DC motor.

If one looks at the power curve, you can see why a 0.7 HP (output) DC motor can do as much work as a 3 HP gas motor. The DC motor gets its power through torque, the gas engine through speed. And yes, gas motors can be hard to start, especially when they've been sitting for a while. The idea of having an electric start outboard with battery on an inflatable is not my concept of decency.



And in a harbor, you can keep it plugged into the grid and always have a charged battery. The factory says to expect a 12 hr recharge time, so overnight is perfect.

The 1003 battery is nominally 29.5 volts, with 33.6 fully charged, so a 30 volt solar panel will not fully charge the battery. I'd stick with the factory panel. Notice you can roll it up. As with all solar panels, you have to point it at the sun for its rated output.

Boris

[Aurelia]

If you read the comments Q and A at the bottom of this page, it has some interesting discussion on DC and solar charging.

http://thetorqeedoshop.com.au/range-extension-options-for-torqeedo-1003-and-ultralight/

The gist of it is... There are two charging channels for the 1003 battery. One is 12v and will charge the battery to full capacity with it's built-in step up converter at the wall charger rate (which is actually 12vdc output). The second charging channel applies at voltages above roughly 16 and directly feeds the battery at whatever voltage it reflects at the moment. So it sounds like a 24v charge would likely not fully charge the battery even though it could add power faster to the peak voltage of that supply compared to a 12v source. More amps at higher voltages... So a 12v to 36v stepup converter might be a better way to go for more charging speed and complete charging as well. No wonder they don't cover this in the literature. Complicated but fun for some of us.

Greg

[thataway]

Greg,
I think Torqeedo is being conservative, plus wants to sell their expensive accessories--battery and solar panel. There are a number of other solar--and even battery, alternatives available for far less money. For example one could use 3- small 12 volt batteries in series, with a 4 amp fuse, or controller. (five 6 volt if you slightly over 30 volts) The use of solar panels which produce 24 to 36 volts is also a very good alternative, There are a number of 4 amp 36 volt solar panel controllers available in the "green" and "solar" worlds. These may be a viable option.

I would suspect the 45 watt solar charger is going to appeal to the Kayaker or some one who does not have any battery charging facility in their boat, or mains power.

I am a bit puzzled by the wide fluctuations of the battery voltage noted here--from 24 to about 36 volts. The Li Ion batteries in the RV and computer world seem to hold their voltage to the very end--and then drop rapidly. I don't know what exact technology is being used in the Torqeedo battery. The ones in RV's are LiFeMnPO4, and the cell voltage is 3.2 resting state. A normal lead acid battery resting state is 2.2 volts. I'll see if I can find more out about the actual battery type and voltage characteristics in the Torqeedo battery.

Boris--not a thing wrong with a RIB and 25 hp with electric start--that is what we used during our 8 total years of full time cruising--AGM U1 (garden tractor battery) works fine for engine start, depth sounder and lights (GPS these days--but then no GPS).

[journey on]

The discussion of solar panels is interesting. I run our house on solar panels, storing the excess power on the grid until we need it. I used solar panels on our sailboat, Our Journey to charge batteries. And certainly I learned how to use solar panels to power spacecraft, since the extension cord gets really long. And I love solar cells.

So I'm going to make a few comments on solar cells. It's not as simple as plugging in a charger to the wall or an inverter.

First, the rated output of a solar cell is with the cell orthogonal to the sunline. That means that if you don't point the panel directly at the sun, the power falls off as the cosine of the curve. For small angles, this is negligible, but at 45 deg the power is reduced by 30% and gets worse from there. So if you want 120 watts all day, you have to point the panel at the sun at daybreak and track the suns motion all day. Laying it out on the deck isn't going to get 120 watts all day, especially on a kayak or dinghy. And don't forget to incline the panel to the sun's declination.

As for "lightly cloudy days" you can watch the power go down as the sun is covered. You need full irradiance to get rated output. The sun puts out 1000 watts/sq meter, including all wavelengths, of which the panel sees some large percent. Dirt, water, clouds, shadows all cut that down.

I just installed 1000 watts of additional solar panels. That's the advertised output. California/NOCT uses a factor which reduces that output by ~25%, because the panels are tested in a laboratory, using a burst of light at one wavelength, whilst the sun has a wide spectrum. The test lamp wavelength is absorbed by the panel, but not all of the suns wavelengths are. Also, solar panels like being cold, so the laboratory tests are run at CELL temps of 25 degC (77 degF) while the average CELL temp is 48'C (118.4'F) per NOCT, which reduces the rated output. So there's a big difference between the lab data (which is what you buy,) and reality. I would hope that the Torqueedo panels are real output, but again a test at ones boat would be needed.

So when someone plans a several hour trip, counting on 120 watts of continuous power from the solar panel, one had better run a test course and see how many watt-hrs you actually get. And those Torqueedo panels cost $600.

So, go ahead and use solar panels, but be aware what it takes to get rated output. And keep your plug in charger at the ready.

Boris

[thataway]

Boris,
The Torqeedo solar panels are only 45 watts, and one would be pressed to get 30 watts out in a realistic situation. They would be little help on a voyage. Best for charging when you are not using the battery. They are expensive.

In the Syndey experiment, I linked to in the first post, they had four 40 watt panels, or 160 watts theoretically available. (Not from Torqeedo--and much less expensive) They did get enough to give full propulsion without depleting the battery for much of the journey, but only after full sunshine near mid day--about from 11AM to 2PM. With clouds, sun angle etc, it was much less as anticipated.

Very good points about solar panels.

What was the "payback" last year with your solar panels on the house? One of my daughter's close friends in Culver City, CA, has the solar program, and as I recollect her total electrical bill was about $3.50 a moth, with the solar generation back to the grid credit (not sure you would really say that you are "storing" power on the grid, since when you feed back, it is being used by someone else at that time, and you are relying on coal, natural gas, hydro or nuclear during the dark times when you need electrical power. I suspect you are getting "credits" for the power you put back into the grid).

[thataway]

I was doing some other research today on inverters and came upon some interesting comments by one of the leading Li ion batteries for boats. Basically 70% less weight, with 3x the power. There Li ion batteries are rated fir 3000 cycles from 90% to 10% discharge. This gives 70 to 80% of the battery available for use, vs the 80% to 50% we commonly find with the lead acid battery. (Consider that running with the engine, and going thru the bulk charge phase, and not waiting for the last 20% of battery charging in the absorption phase, or the last 5% to 15% with float phase (the settings depend on the charger/regulator settings)

The Li ion allows 100% of the charge into the battery, and can be charged at a high rate. For example the 100 amp 12 volt Genasun battery is $2,150, and can be recharged in less than an hour with a 100 amp charger, to allow cycling between 90% and 10% charge--or 80 amps available. Weight is about 30 lbs! Compare that to a Group 31 which weighs 70 lbs and has usable about 30 amps. (cycling form 80% to 50%--and a much shorter life span. Because of cost, not yet ready for prime time, but the costs of these batteries are coming down, and this particular company is high end, and more expensive.

[journey on]

Bob, you're certainly correct in saying the Li batteries are a great step forward over lead acid. When we were younger, NiCD was the hot setup, but we've certainly passed that. I can hardly wait to see what the next step is.

A few factoids from Torqueedo:

They use an Li nmc battery ( lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide) which give lower energy density than other Li batteries, but offers longer life and safety. Boeing has evidence of the importance of Safety.

The Torqueedo manual has the battery losing 20% of capacity after 500 cycles of 100% or any combination, such as 1000 cycles at 50%.

Maximum charge time is 14 hrs. The main problem is not acceptance in the battery, but heat, which is harder on the battery than cycling.

I still am not sure how one uses 12VDC to charge a 39 VDC battery. They must have the battery divided into 3 11 VDC banks for charging.

Now, a few conversions from input watts to shaft HP:

160 watts solar power = 0.075 HP. This is from the Aussies using a 160 W solar panel, which reportedly fully powered their boat.

200 W = 0.12 HP, which is the wattage used as the best speed in an above post.

3 hp shaft = 7500 watts in (energy in gasoline to be burned)

These data show how little HP we use in cruising in our dinghys, though I had a 3 HP Johnson that could just barely plane the Avon.

Boris

[starcrafttom]

Here's a different look on the whole thing.

When the Torqueedo came out and I went to their web site I thought " That is a great idea for the use they are showing" And that use was not as a dinghy motor for long range cruisers in small outboard boats. It was for day use on small lakes and lakes that did not allow gas motors. Many of the boats shown where small wood runabouts on gas prohibited lakes in Europe. Now that is a big market both there and here in the U.S. Lots of little lakes both natural and man made that are gas free where a efficient electric motor would be a great asset. Torqueedo even has a bigger 28hp motor that will run a larger runabout on plane. The battery pack is built in and weights a lot more then a gas engine but for those lake that will not let you use a gas engine I can see the fun of it. I can see the cool factor too.

That said I don't see using this motor ( motors are electric , engines are gas or fuel. Sorry but my dad drilled that into me years ago and I have to stop my self from correcting people and sometimes my self from using them interchangeably ) to replace a small gas engine on a cdory when on long trips. Weekend? Sure that would do. Got a larger cruiser with a inboard and a inverter that can charge the system while under way? ( ranger tug 27 or bigger) Then sure.

I also have to have a reason that includes a benefit to me before I change from one technology to another. And on top of that I need to not lose something in the trade. So what are the trade offs. Well a small 2 to 4 hp 4 stroke outboard will push both my c dory if need be and my dinghy as far as the gas will allow. Need more gas its easy enough to find or borrow. I already have 100 gallons on board. I have a hose rigged to my main gas supply that I can fill the can or in my case, the engine mounted tank, straight from main tank. I think more people should look to into this rather then storing extra tanks on board. So this allows my little kicker to serve as another emergency engine should the main and the kicker ( I have a 15hp kicker mounted on the 27. Its a little more then most c dorys) go tits up on me. The Torqueedo will not have that ability for very long.

Well there is the weight issue. My 3.5 2 stroke kicker that I use on the dinghy is very light. I would have to look it up but its less then 2o lbs I think. I can hold it at arms length with one hand. Most of the 4 or less 4 strokes are light enough for me to handle and if not I can use the shrimp pot puller to get them aboard. I did this once after I broke a rib two years ago. I just could not lift the motor any more after a long weekend on the water, getting soft. So the trade off of a little weight vs the loss of range is not a good trade in my case.

So the quiet factor?? compared to a small 4 stroke engine I don't see a big difference in noise over the Torqueedo. I have heard both and its just not enough to be considered a factor to me. If I really want to be quiet I will row. And to tell you the truth after two years of use of a small kicker on my dinghy, I prefer to row as long as its less then a mile and most times its a lot less. I still bring the little kicker but unless I'm going to crab, fish or head to a distant beach/dock/boat I just row and leave the kicker on the big boat.

Efficiency- thats the one that I have the most trouble swallowing. Any time you transfer power from one form to another you loss a lot of efficiency. So are you better off burning fuel to generate power for a battery or are you better off just burning fuel to create power? Just burn the fuel the first time is far more efficient. But what about the enviroment? If you are burning the fuel anyway while charging under way its a wash because you had to burn the fuel. The amount of exhaust in modern 4 stroke engines is so little and so clean that its hardly worth noting these days. And if you are running a generator and burning motor fuel to charge your electric motor then if you just ran a small 4 stroke engine then what is being gained? I will let you read about how and where the mining is done for the materials for all these new batteries and how long they last and how they are disposed of for your selves, lots of info out there and not all of if good, but I don't believe that it is either clean or ethical at this point. People will go on and on about fair trade coffee but never ask how many north Korean's it takes to make a battery. ( will boycotting batterys be the down fall of N.K. ? No that will take lead in a different form.

Would I use a Torqueedo on a cdory for a dinghy motor and back up kicker? ( that's the mission that it has to fill for me) NO. Would I use it a dinghy motor for going to shore off of my 30 plus foot diesel powered cruise with a generator while traveling the inside passage? Hell yes.

[thataway]

Boris, I don't buy that there is a 90% loss in "energy" in an electric motor in the Torqeedo application. What do you have to back that up? (You say that 1 hp = 7500 watts. The normal equation is 1 hp equals 746 watts.

Thanks