Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the diffs

journey on · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject:

This discussion has gone on long enough for me to make an intelligent comment, since I just got the parts to rebuild the Seastar hydraulic cylinder.

First, let me point out a truism: if you have a hydraulic leak or another failure, YOU HAVE NO STEERING. With a mechanical system, you may be able to jury rig something, duct tape or wire, but you can't with a hydraulic system. Given that fact, one should do the best one can to prevent a failure, right?

The Seastar steering on Journey On has been there for 8 years (my, how time passes when you're having fun,) and needs to be re-bled. There are no signs of leakage, so I'm chalking it up to a large thermal change (summer to winter,) allowing the hydraulic fluid to contract to the point where it allowed air to enter via the steering pump. Anyway, before bleeding it, I decided to replace the hydraulic cylinder seals. Looking at the new seals, I think that Seastar did a good job: a wiper o-ring backed up by support bushings on each side. Which probably explains why I've had no problems before.

Reading this blog/post/thread, I started looking at the Baystar steering. First, both Seastar and Baystar helm pumps have the same working pressure @ 1000 psi, though Seastar has options for 1500 psi. That means that the hydraulic cylinder gets the same pressure whatever you buy. So, then I looked at the Baystar vs Seastar hydraulic cylinders. The Seastar, in my opinion, has a sturdier design. And I think that also goes for the other components: Seastar is certainly sturdier.

So that makes the Seastar more reliable, since most failures discussed in C-Brats have been hydraulic failures.

I reviewed Les's comments, and most of them had to do with installation and ergonomics, certainly discriminators, but for the small difference in cost, I'd go with Seastar, unless as Les said, you're putting this on a 16' C-Dory. If your hydraulic steering fails, cost is the last thing going through your mind. You're just trying to get the boat home.

Also note that Baystar is no longer offering the drag link type cylinder that Les discusses. Here's the new Baystar configuration. I think the changes include changing to Seastar type hydraulic lines. Make sure you get the new type.

Boris

Sunbeam · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject:

Captains Cat · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject:

OTOH, if you have a TomCat and widely spaced twins (lets don't start that debate again Shocked

). You will have a modicum of steering without the hydraulics.

Charlie

Kushtaka · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject:

I am also following this post with interest as I'm going to be going hydraulic soon and have similar concerns, priorities, etc.

I've never had my cable fail on me, but I sure have had it get sticky. I've had hydraulic systems fail on me, but I'm still planning to make the shift to hydraulic.

If one were to use their boat regularly in very remote areas where a short unplanned swim means a quick death, and learning that parts from these systems are interchangeable, I'm thinking the thing to do would be to install a seastar system, and keep a backup baystar ram on board. Maybe some of the lightest hydraulic hoses that will work as well, just to run straight from the helm to the ram in a pinch? That's maybe a bit of overkill where sea tow is an option, but I'm starting to think it sounds reasonable.

I think that repair would be doable in less than ideal conditions if you could put out your anchor or a sea anchor to keep your nose into the weather. For the additonal cost of a baystar ram, you essentially get something close to a redundant system (albeit with a little elbow grease).

Sunbeam, from what you mentioned about your concerns about price in this scenario, it seems like the above would give you the highest additional margin of safety at the lowest cost.

Kushtaka · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:30 pm Post subject:

After considering the above, I think it would be prudent to add that a second helm or autopilot would be needed for the system to be truly redundant. That or a backup helm pump.

Sunbeam · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject:

rogerbum · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject:

I had some problems with the hydraulic system on my boat that involved a slow but imperceptible leak until the steering got bad. In my case the first noticeable symptom was that due to trapped air in the system and a very strong current that required me to back off the dock with the engines hard over, pressure built up and blew hydraulic fluid out the fill cap (which blew off). Even with this happening, I didn't completely lose steering (thank goodness) and I managed to operate the boat for a fishing trip until the current slacked and it was easier to return to the dock. So small (or even moderate) leaks don't generally cause a complete loss of steering and you can top off the fluid and the units (somewhat) self bleed (but it's better if you bleed them properly). Also, as Sunbeam pointed out, they tend not to seize up like a cable so you can jury-rig a tiller and move the engine when the hydraulics fail (deck pole + lots of duct tape and maybe some rope).

Chris · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject:

Regardless of the type of steering you might settle on...be sure to fashion yourself an emergency tiller of some sort. Easy to do...a chunk of square tube a few feet long...with a couple of holes to bolt to the steering bracket on the motor...the holes in the bracket are already there. A little kick so it clears the transom...will save the day when that motor starts flopping back and forth!

Captains Cat · Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:26 pm Post subject:

Will-C

It would not be against the rules to carry a seal kit or at least some spare hydraulic fluid to get you out of a jam. Or you could carry a whole extra steering cable if you want go that way. Make sure you have a funnel / hose to be able to get that hydraulic steering fluid where it needs to go. I think I'll rig up something to be able to use our boat hook for emergency steering Justin Case. It' like me at a Chinese restaurant soo many choices. Joe r u ok?
D.D.

Sea Wolf

Kushtaka

Sunbeam

nimrod · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:53 pm Post subject:

I kind of create topic summaries on my own for my purposes. I'll do an exhaustive thread search on my topic of interest, and cut/paste passages from posts into a Word doc. I include poster attribution in case I want to ask followup questions of the original poster. For me, it's a way to sort through all the posts and kind of separate the wheat from the chaff, and collect all of the chewy goodness in one place.

jd

journey on · Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject:

Just to clear something up, an autopilot or second helm are NOT backups. They are in parallel with the main helm pump and depend on pressure in the same lines to pressurize the same drive cylinder. If one pump loses pressure, they all lose pressure. If the cylinder fails, no pump will drive the cylinder.

I would guess that the Seastar and Baystar cylinders are not interchangeable, unless you buy the complete kit. Lines fail and seals leak, so those would be a good idea for spares.

I carry fluid and a fill kit. That's good for a small leak, or topping up. Doesn't help on a failure.

Again, the hydraulic steering on Journey On has worked for 8 years without a failure. The only real failures that I've heard of are with twin 150's. So for anything less I'd go with Seastar and quit worrying.

Boris