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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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This discussion has gone on long enough for me to make an intelligent comment, since I just got the parts to rebuild the Seastar hydraulic cylinder.
First, let me point out a truism: if you have a hydraulic leak or another failure, YOU HAVE NO STEERING. With a mechanical system, you may be able to jury rig something, duct tape or wire, but you can't with a hydraulic system. Given that fact, one should do the best one can to prevent a failure, right?
The Seastar steering on Journey On has been there for 8 years (my, how time passes when you're having fun,) and needs to be re-bled. There are no signs of leakage, so I'm chalking it up to a large thermal change (summer to winter,) allowing the hydraulic fluid to contract to the point where it allowed air to enter via the steering pump. Anyway, before bleeding it, I decided to replace the hydraulic cylinder seals. Looking at the new seals, I think that Seastar did a good job: a wiper o-ring backed up by support bushings on each side. Which probably explains why I've had no problems before.
Reading this blog/post/thread, I started looking at the Baystar steering. First, both Seastar and Baystar helm pumps have the same working pressure @ 1000 psi, though Seastar has options for 1500 psi. That means that the hydraulic cylinder gets the same pressure whatever you buy. So, then I looked at the Baystar vs Seastar hydraulic cylinders. The Seastar, in my opinion, has a sturdier design. And I think that also goes for the other components: Seastar is certainly sturdier.
So that makes the Seastar more reliable, since most failures discussed in C-Brats have been hydraulic failures.
I reviewed Les's comments, and most of them had to do with installation and ergonomics, certainly discriminators, but for the small difference in cost, I'd go with Seastar, unless as Les said, you're putting this on a 16' C-Dory. If your hydraulic steering fails, cost is the last thing going through your mind. You're just trying to get the boat home.
Also note that Baystar is no longer offering the drag link type cylinder that Les discusses. Here's the new Baystar configuration. I think the changes include changing to Seastar type hydraulic lines. Make sure you get the new type.
Boris |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012 Posts: 3990 City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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journey on wrote: | This discussion has gone on long enough for me to make an intelligent comment, since I just got the parts to rebuild the Seastar hydraulic cylinder. |
Glad you chimed in
journey on wrote: | First, let me point out a truism: if you have a hydraulic leak or another failure, YOU HAVE NO STEERING. With a mechanical system, you may be able to jury rig something, duct tape or wire, but you can't with a hydraulic system. |
I don't know one way or the other yet, since I have little experience with either system (hey, last time I had a boat with a wheel, it had wire rope and little "pulleys" for the steering!), but I did notice that in one of Les's posts I had saved, he said the opposite, which was that oftentimes you could make it in with leaking hydraulic steering, whereas a seized able isn't doing anything. I suppose it depends on how catastrophic said leak is. OTOH, I have a tiller-steered kicker, so that gives another option altogether.
journey on wrote: | Also note that Baystar is no longer offering the drag link type cylinder that Les discusses. |
That's a key piece of info that this thread gave me, and things like that are a major reason I started it in the first place. How annoying would it have been to choose Bay Star based on that one "fact" and then to find out it was no longer even true! (Of course it was accurate when it was posted in 2002.)
For me this is a perfect discussion for January -- as I think over the various systems and projects for the 22 -- and I appreciate everyone's contributions |
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Captains Cat
Joined: 03 Nov 2003 Posts: 7313 City/Region: Cod Creek>Potomac River>Chesapeake Bay
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Captain's Choice II
Photos: Captain's Cat
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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OTOH, if you have a TomCat and widely spaced twins (lets don't start that debate again ). You will have a modicum of steering without the hydraulics.
Charlie _________________ CHARLIE and PENNY CBRAT #100
Captain's Cat II 2005 22 Cruiser
Thataway (2006 TC255 - Sold Aug 2013)
Captain's Cat (2006 TC255 - Sold January 2012)
Captain's Kitten (1995 CD 16 Angler- Sold June 2010)
Captain's Choice (1994 CD 22 Cruiser- Sold Jun 2007)
Potomac River/Chesapeake Bay
K4KBA |
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Kushtaka
Joined: 17 Dec 2013 Posts: 648 City/Region: Cordova
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Kushtaka
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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I am also following this post with interest as I'm going to be going hydraulic soon and have similar concerns, priorities, etc.
I've never had my cable fail on me, but I sure have had it get sticky. I've had hydraulic systems fail on me, but I'm still planning to make the shift to hydraulic.
If one were to use their boat regularly in very remote areas where a short unplanned swim means a quick death, and learning that parts from these systems are interchangeable, I'm thinking the thing to do would be to install a seastar system, and keep a backup baystar ram on board. Maybe some of the lightest hydraulic hoses that will work as well, just to run straight from the helm to the ram in a pinch? That's maybe a bit of overkill where sea tow is an option, but I'm starting to think it sounds reasonable.
I think that repair would be doable in less than ideal conditions if you could put out your anchor or a sea anchor to keep your nose into the weather. For the additonal cost of a baystar ram, you essentially get something close to a redundant system (albeit with a little elbow grease).
Sunbeam, from what you mentioned about your concerns about price in this scenario, it seems like the above would give you the highest additional margin of safety at the lowest cost. |
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Kushtaka
Joined: 17 Dec 2013 Posts: 648 City/Region: Cordova
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Kushtaka
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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After considering the above, I think it would be prudent to add that a second helm or autopilot would be needed for the system to be truly redundant. That or a backup helm pump. |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012 Posts: 3990 City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Kushtaka wrote: | I am also following this post with interest as I'm going to be going hydraulic soon and have similar concerns, priorities, etc. |
Cool - the thread can do double duty
Kushtaka wrote: | Sunbeam, from what you mentioned about your concerns about price in this scenario, it seems like the above would give you the highest additional margin of safety at the lowest cost. |
I'm not sure if I'm mis-reading you, or if I didn't communicate very well above, but just to clarify, price is the least important factor to me in choosing which hydraulic system (or combination of systems) to go with. I mean, I'm not going to pick a system *because* it's more expensive (that would be silly, to me); but given the prominence of a steering system in overall use of the boat, price is not my deciding factor. It's factors like overall design, quality,"tidyness," personal appeal, and customer service that sway me when I'm looking at purchasing something. Now, if one steering system was $200 and the other was $6000 that would be different. But in this case I think the (difference in) price would be long forgotten while the experience of using it would remain.
If I misread what you wrote and just blathered on for nothing.... never mind! It's just that a few people in the thread got the idea that I was concerned about price, or trying to "cheap out," and I didn't want that to mistakenly color the conversation. Again, not that I'm trying to "waste" money, but I think either Bay Star or Sea Star would be a worthy expenditure and I want to get whichever one suits me better.
Interesting thoughts about carrying spares. I would like to get out into the hinterlands, but will probably just do one "good" steering installation, count on that (while bringing along spare fluid, etc.), and then if it stops working just use the tiller-steered kicker to get myself back to "someplace." Always interesting to discuss "what-ifs" though.
Last edited by Sunbeam on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rogerbum
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 5922 City/Region: Kenmore
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Meant to be
Photos: SeaDNA
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I had some problems with the hydraulic system on my boat that involved a slow but imperceptible leak until the steering got bad. In my case the first noticeable symptom was that due to trapped air in the system and a very strong current that required me to back off the dock with the engines hard over, pressure built up and blew hydraulic fluid out the fill cap (which blew off). Even with this happening, I didn't completely lose steering (thank goodness) and I managed to operate the boat for a fishing trip until the current slacked and it was easier to return to the dock. So small (or even moderate) leaks don't generally cause a complete loss of steering and you can top off the fluid and the units (somewhat) self bleed (but it's better if you bleed them properly). Also, as Sunbeam pointed out, they tend not to seize up like a cable so you can jury-rig a tiller and move the engine when the hydraulics fail (deck pole + lots of duct tape and maybe some rope). _________________ Roger on Meant to be |
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Chris
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 227 City/Region: Bend
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Rana Verde
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of the type of steering you might settle on...be sure to fashion yourself an emergency tiller of some sort. Easy to do...a chunk of square tube a few feet long...with a couple of holes to bolt to the steering bracket on the motor...the holes in the bracket are already there. A little kick so it clears the transom...will save the day when that motor starts flopping back and forth! _________________ Chris
Rana Verde |
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Captains Cat
Joined: 03 Nov 2003 Posts: 7313 City/Region: Cod Creek>Potomac River>Chesapeake Bay
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Captain's Choice II
Photos: Captain's Cat
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Kushtaka wrote: | After considering the above, I think it would be prudent to add that a second helm or autopilot would be needed for the system to be truly redundant. That or a backup helm pump. |
The only true backup is a Bolt Cutter and a tiller or broomstick and duct tape!
Charlie |
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Will-C
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 2476 City/Region: Temple
State or Province: PA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: Will-C
Photos: Will-C
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:27 am Post subject: Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the diffs |
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It would not be against the rules to carry a seal kit or at least some spare hydraulic fluid to get you out of a jam. Or you could carry a whole extra steering cable if you want go that way. Make sure you have a funnel / hose to be able to get that hydraulic steering fluid where it needs to go. I think I'll rig up something to be able to use our boat hook for emergency steering Justin Case. It' like me at a Chinese restaurant soo many choices. Joe r u ok?
D.D. _________________ Chevrolet The Heart Beat Of America |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 8650 City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the d |
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Will-C wrote: | Joe r u ok?
D.D. |
Dave- I'm fine!
Actually it sounds like we're finally getting down to some conclusive results.
When a thread like this comes to some definitive conclusions, a summary should be written and then put ahead of the first post, so that future researchers can immediately get to the final conclusions without reading pages after pages of discussion, including hijackings, social commentaries, etc., etc. (I know, I'm as much responsible for that drivel as anybody!) The original poster should be responsible for writing up the final summary, or arrange to delegate it to someone willing to do it well.
I often wonder why more members don't throughly research a topic before they pose a "new" question, but for a number of reasons, it is often a long, tedious process, and it's not as much fun for the questioner as revisiting the subject again with everyone participating. It does, however, get kind of tiring for those writing the responses, again, again…...
If I had 5 years of time with nothing to do, I'd write an abstract of all the common questions asked repeatedly here and the standard answers tendered to them. I would make a nice handbook from which to start new discussions, since after reading the abstract summary, everyone would be on common ground, and much of the usual initial discussion would have been covered.
But most folks don't think or operate like I'm suggesting, so I guess I'm just entertaining myself with hypothetical improbabilities!
OK, so what do you think about whether a C-Dory should have twins, a single, or a single with a kicker?
Nice yaking' with ya'!
Joe. _________________ Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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Kushtaka
Joined: 17 Dec 2013 Posts: 648 City/Region: Cordova
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Kushtaka
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the d |
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Will-C wrote: | Make sure you have a funnel / hose to be able to get that hydraulic steering fluid where it needs to go. |
And don't forget a push pin or thumb tack to get the fluid out of the bottle if you use a hose! Then a zip lock to put the bottle in when you're done! |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012 Posts: 3990 City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the d |
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Sea Wolf wrote: | When a thread like this comes to some definitive conclusions, a summary should be written and then put ahead of the first post...The original poster should be responsible for writing up the final summary, or arrange to delegate it to someone willing to do it well. |
I'm the original poster in this thread, but I don't agree with this idea. One reason is that I don't feel there are always "definitive conclusions." Or, my "definitive conclusions" are not the same ones that others would make. Also, many threads do not end (meaning that they are revisited later). I do try to make it easy for future searchers, by attempting to write clearly, include searchable terms, use properly spelled product names, add links or photos, etc. That way people can draw their own conclusions from the information presented.
Sea Wolf wrote: | I often wonder why more members don't throughly research a topic before they pose a "new" question, but for a number of reasons, it is often a long, tedious process, and it's not as much fun for the questioner as revisiting the subject again with everyone participating. It does, however, get kind of tiring for those writing the responses, again, again…... |
Not sure if you are addressing anyone specifically here, but again, since I'm the OP of this thread, I will respond (speaking for myself, anyway). I do always research things before posing a new thread. I usually find some good information, and I do read through it. However, I may still want to post. Sometimes I tack onto an older-yet-similar thread if it seems appropriate, so as to keep topics together. Other times I start a new one. Of the latter times, there might be a few reasons:
1) My situation is different enough from the prior ones that I need to ask something new.
2) The prior thread didn't ever answer the question (or tangential question) that was posed.
3) The prior thread is so old that a new one seems like a better idea.
One example of this is that I got some information about the Bay Star steering cylinder by searching older threads here. The information was posted by a very knowledgeable source. Yet that information is incorrect now simply because over 12 years' time the product has changed. Glad I asked again instead of going by that thread.
All that said, I don't run the board, so if rules such as you suggest are established, I will behave accordingly.
Sunbeam |
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nimrod
Joined: 15 Jul 2008 Posts: 268 City/Region: Mount Vernon
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1996
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Berta's Boy
Photos: 'Berta's Boy
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I kind of create topic summaries on my own for my purposes. I'll do an exhaustive thread search on my topic of interest, and cut/paste passages from posts into a Word doc. I include poster attribution in case I want to ask followup questions of the original poster. For me, it's a way to sort through all the posts and kind of separate the wheat from the chaff, and collect all of the chewy goodness in one place.
jd |
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journey on
Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3597 City/Region: Valley Centre
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: journey on
Photos: Journey On
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Just to clear something up, an autopilot or second helm are NOT backups. They are in parallel with the main helm pump and depend on pressure in the same lines to pressurize the same drive cylinder. If one pump loses pressure, they all lose pressure. If the cylinder fails, no pump will drive the cylinder.
I would guess that the Seastar and Baystar cylinders are not interchangeable, unless you buy the complete kit. Lines fail and seals leak, so those would be a good idea for spares.
I carry fluid and a fill kit. That's good for a small leak, or topping up. Doesn't help on a failure.
Again, the hydraulic steering on Journey On has worked for 8 years without a failure. The only real failures that I've heard of are with twin 150's. So for anything less I'd go with Seastar and quit worrying.
Boris |
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