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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| SEA3PO wrote: | | Ha ! I love it...now I will admit to hooking up my automatic trim tabs backwards.... made a hard turn and almost tipped the boat over... like an airplane doing a roll... scared the heck out of me. |
Yikes! Although since nothing bad actually happened, both yours and Jay's stories are funny in retrospect. I didn't hook mine up backwards (although one did explode, which was fun), but I did go back and make the lights on the display "backwards." It drove me nuts that the "opposite" column would light up - especially when the whole system is already "show me what the boat will do and not actually which tab is operating." To my mind that clashed with showing the "actual" column of lights, and I just wanted one system or the other. Changed the lights around and now my brain can work with it 
| SEA3PO wrote: | | ...only reason I dislike the Bay Star helm is that the shaft seal has such a poor design... the newer Bay Star pumps have a better design seal and would not have the same problem... |
Am I reading you correctly that if you had it to do over again now, you'd just go with a complete Bay Star system (purchased as a kit), pump and all? (Due to re-design.) Do you by chance understand what I have heard about the Bay Star being designed in such a way that it's more compact/tidier in the splashwell? (Something about which part of the ram or etc. moves in comparison to the other.)
From what I can tell so far, both "Stars" are going to be reasonably reliable, with possible problems, so I'm trying to figure out the "little details" that might make me prefer one over the other. I feel like there is some difference in the way the rams work or fit in the splashwell (possible point to Bay Star, but I'm not sure); some difference in fitting the lines (possible point to Bay Star but I am not clear on this); and tilt only available on Sea Star (point to Sea Star if I would actually want it - again not sure!).
Would be nice to see both installed on a 22 before choosing, but OTOH I might want to get this job done before summer season.
The one "dread" I have (besides choosing a system) is getting that gigantic steering cable out.... seems it might be a  type of job! |
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Sea Wolf
Joined: 01 Nov 2003
Posts: 8650
City/Region: Redding
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 1987
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Wolf
Photos: Sea Wolf
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Sunbeam-
Since you're agonizing over this decision so much, and so much seems to ride on Les's past stated preference for the BayStar system that is not presently clear, I suggest you write him a PM and ask that he comment on this thread.
As far as the difficulty in getting the Teleflex cable out of your boat, Mike (TyBoo) will, (IFIRC), tell you it's no problem: Simply cut it into small removable sections with a pneumatic or electric cut-off tool!
Good Luck!
Joe.  
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Sea Wolf, C-Brat #31
Lake Shasta, California
  
"Most of my money I spent on boats and women. The rest I squandered'. " -Annonymous |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Sea Wolf wrote: | | Since you're agonizing over this decision so much... |
You know, I almost didn't start this thread because I wondered if it might give some people the wrong impression. I'll try to explain better. From my perspective, I'm not agonizing but rather am researching. I know I tend toward one end of the spectrum (details/information), and I am aware that it is bothersome to some people. The thing is, when I am going to choose, purchase, install, and live with a "system" -- especially one used as often as a steering wheel -- I like to research it before I do so. Details matter to me, and I find them interesting, so I check into them. If there is something I don't understand about it, rather than ignoring it or finding it a bother, I see it an opportunity to learn, and I enjoy coming to an understanding of it. That said, if other people prefer to do it another way, more power to them - to each their own.
I don't like to "bug" people unnecessarily, and I am fairly sure that long posts can put some people off. I do read the archives first, so as not to waste anyone's time; but then if I don't find what I'm looking for -- or if I feel it may be good to get more-current information -- I ask. Presumably, too, if I'm wondering something and can't find it, so may another person in future.
It's also January. Maybe it's because I come from the north, but to me that always feels like a time to sit back, plan for the future, and do my researching/scheming/etc. (so that I don't end up doing it in the lovely summer months). I do realize that other folks prefer to "just pick one," and maybe they are bothered by what feels to them like "agonizing." If it is troublesome, I could limit my posts here - I have no desire to irritate the group as a whole, nor to give them the impression that I am sitting around agonizing (which sounds negative to me).
Anyway, I'll give Teleflex a call and see what they have to say.
| Sea Wolf wrote: | | As far as the difficulty in getting the Teleflex cable out of your boat, Mike (TyBoo) will, (IFIRC), tell you it's no problem: Simply cut it into small removable sections with a pneumatic or electric cut-off tool! |
I considered that, but envisioned either scads of flying "metal dust" inside the boat or my accidentally cutting a hole in the boat due to the tight quarters. I had also heard that it was the hardest part of changing to hydraulic steering. Good to know it is actually simple. |
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Captains Cat
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 7313
City/Region: Cod Creek>Potomac River>Chesapeake Bay
State or Province: VA
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Captain's Choice II
Photos: Captain's Cat
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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If you're worried about "metal dust", use a small (actually as large as will fit) bolt cutter. No dust. Just make sure you're around the right thing before you cut... 
charlie
_________________
CHARLIE and PENNY CBRAT #100
Captain's Cat II 2005 22 Cruiser
Thataway (2006 TC255 - Sold Aug 2013)
Captain's Cat (2006 TC255 - Sold January 2012)
Captain's Kitten (1995 CD 16 Angler- Sold June 2010)
Captain's Choice (1994 CD 22 Cruiser- Sold Jun 2007)
Potomac River/Chesapeake Bay
K4KBA |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Captains Cat wrote: | | If you're worried about "metal dust"... |
You're right in that I despise metal or fiberglass dust flying around inside the boat - ugh! I prefer take the time to try to prevent it first vs. the time to clean it up later (of course some clean up is inevitable but I at least like to reduce it).
| Captains Cat wrote: | | ...use a small (actually as large as will fit) bolt cutter. No dust. |
Good idea, thanks! I will check into it. As of yet, I have not cut the cable loose from its supports, so I am not sure whether it will drop down and give me more working room, or basically stay "glued" to the hull/cabinetry (thereby making for very cramped quarters). So far I'm just in the researching stage and my cable steering is still working fine so I have time to figure things out. I appreciate your input. |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Sea Wolf wrote: | | Since..so much seems to ride on Les's past stated preference for the BayStar system that is not presently clear, I suggest you write him a PM and ask that he comment on this thread. |
I thought about that, but I just knew I had the information somewhere -- I only had to find it Anyway, here we go, fresh from the year 2002 
From: LesLampman Sent: 12/1/2002 4:52 PM
The Teleflex BayStar system is the "factory standard" hydraulic system from C-Dory on the CD22s. It's the model that was installed on C-Salt and it worked superbly even when equipped with the Raymarine ST5000+ autopilot.
The BayStar system uses 3/8" hydraulic tubing rather than the large hydraulic hoses that the SeaStar system uses and has a molded helm unit rather than aluminum. They can do this because the BayStar system does not have to generate the amount of PSI that the SeaStar system does (which is what the 150hp limit is about). Those big hoses on the SeaStar system are spendy (and don't come with the helm kit) and come in one foot increments, the ends are swaged on. The 3/8" tubing the BayStar utilizes comes in a roll with the steering kit and is easy to cut with a tube cutter; it uses compression fittings rather than swaged fittings.
And the part I like best (other than the much lower price) ... the BayStar uses a fixed cylinder, moving ram system rather that the fixed ram and moving cylinder of the SeaStar. That means the hydraulic tubes going to the cylinder on the outboard do not have to move in the motorwell. The BayStar system uses the same drag-link that the cable steering system does so it's easy to hook up at the motor end. In fact, the whole installation is pretty easy.
The BayStar cylinder is universal for all outboards since it doesn't connect directly to the engine; it's held by a rod through the tilt tube but doesn't connect to the outboard's steering arm. Instead, as mentioned above, it uses the standard drag link that came with the engine.
I love hydraulic steering so I'm not an objective person to ask about whether or not it's worth it. If I had a CD16 with a Honda BF50 it would have BayStar steering; I like it that much.
Plus it makes adding a good autopilot really easy.
Les
Now, everyone may not agree with the information above (who knows, maybe I wouldn't either once I had laid hands on both systems); but it's what had stuck in the back of my mind that I was trying to remember/understand. I'm still completely open to either system, and will be until I purchase one or the other. In fact, my usual tendency is to go for the heavier-duty setup, all else being equal. |
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ckcpony
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 58
City/Region: Pony
State or Province: MT
C-Dory Year: 1998
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Amy Jo
Photos: Tonka
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Sunbeam, I have been following this thread with interest because I had these same questions about Baystar vs Seastar a few weeks ago. I have twin 40 Hondas and after I finally settled on a Baystar system I got one and installed it. Now I know that Teleflex flatly states that Baystar is not designed for twin engine applications but I had read Jay's (Hunky Dory) posts and he has Baystar with twin 40's so I figured that I could figure out how to make it work. Well to make a long story short "I couldn't ". Well after a lot of head scratching and false starts I finally figured it out. When Leslampman posted his opinion about Baystar and When Jay installed his Baystar Teleflex was selling Baystar cylinder model number HC4600 which they have now discontinued. It mounted as Les described it rather than the way both Baystar and Seastar do with the current models . With the old HC4600 the cylinder stays stationary and you don't need a big curve in the hoses to allow for cylinder movement . After figuring this out I bought a HC4600 cylinder off of E-Bay and got my system working in no time. A piece of cake. There is a HC4600 cylinder on E-Bay now if you are interested. Teleflex still sells seals for the old style cylinder. By the way I have an installed but never used newer model Baystar cylinder for sale for $150 if anyone is interested.
Jay and Les I hope you don't mind if I referenced your previous posts.
Teleflex also says that Baystar can't be used with dual helm systems but mine seems to be working fine.
Clint |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ckcpony wrote: | | Sunbeam, I have been following this thread with interest because I had these same questions about Baystar vs Seastar a few weeks ago. |
Cool
| ckcpony wrote: | | I have twin 40 Hondas and after I finally settled on a Baystar system...after a lot of head scratching and false starts I finally figured it out. |
Good sleuthing!
| ckcpony wrote: | | ... Baystar cylinder model number HC4600 which they have now discontinued. It mounted as Les described it rather than the way both Baystar and Seastar do with the current models. |
Ah - so if I'm reading this right, the "advantage" that the Baystar had as described by Les (tidier in the cockpit due to which part moved) is no longer applicable to current models. That is great information to have. Nothing like making a decision based on a factor that no longer even applies. That would have been a bummer.
I think I'll probably go with a current system vs. looking for "previous" parts on eBay (but I'm really glad you replied with this info - super useful), and so I think this means I can take the "which part moves" factor out as a difference. Good to know.
Sunbeam |
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Pandion
Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 274
City/Region: Kenmore
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Osprey
Photos: Osprey
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| ckcpony wrote: | | ... after figuring this out I bought a HC4600 cylinder off of E-Bay and got my system working in no time. A piece of cake ... |
ckpony, what level of mechanical competence do you think is needed for the Baystar/HC4600 installation, with twin 40s?
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Andy Ryan
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ckcpony
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 58
City/Region: Pony
State or Province: MT
C-Dory Year: 1998
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Amy Jo
Photos: Tonka
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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]Pandion, installing the HC4600 cylinder is much easier than the current Baystar or Seastar models . You attach it to the starboard engine tilt tube much like you would a mechanical steering cable. And unlike the Seastar cylinder which requires an expensive drag link to connect to your port engine (manufactured by, "guess who" Seastar) you can simply use your existing drag link and you're good to go.
It's a good idea to attach the starboard end of the link to the top of the engine steering bracket to avoid the link coming in contact with the steering cylinder when you tilt the engines up.
Clint |
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SEA3PO
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 1835
City/Region: Chester
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SEA3PO
Photos: SEA3PO
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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I finally got my leak stopped on the Baystar helm unit...turned out that the rebuild "kit" gave me a undersized O-ring... once I installed the proper size O-ring everything was fine.... BUT I decided to replace the helm with a new Seastar helm as I really don't like how the shaft seal is designed and I would forever worry about it starting to leak again... just a bad design having a shaft seal housing that sorta free floats..and a O-ring that seals the seal holder.... the new Seastar has just one seal that eliminates the O-ring...
Joel
SEA3PO |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| SEA3PO wrote: | | I finally got my leak stopped on the Baystar helm unit...turned out that the rebuild "kit" gave me a undersized O-ring... once I installed the proper size O-ring everything was fine.... |
That's good to hear
| SEA3PO wrote: | | BUT I decided to replace the helm with a new Seastar helm as I really don't like how the shaft seal is designed and I would forever worry about it starting to leak again... just a bad design having a shaft seal housing that sorta free floats..and a O-ring that seals the seal holder.... the new Seastar has just one seal that eliminates the O-ring... |
So this is the helm part of the unit you are speaking of... right? i.e. the part just ahead of the wheel in the cabin. Do you know if the current Bay Star still has the design you don't like? (Sounds like it does, but just checking since you are replacing an older unit.)
Thanks for any info (if you have it), and glad to hear you are up and running with no leaks (although I understand why you have lost trust in it and will be replacing it). |
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SEA3PO
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 1835
City/Region: Chester
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SEA3PO
Photos: SEA3PO
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yes the two new design helm units are alike in their sealing of the shaft....it is a seal with a lip on the outside and inside...I would think that the outside lip would also lock into position and not allow the the seal to free float...
The dimensions of the units are the same and so the Baystar and Seastar would look identical...with the exception of the Seastar being a bit more heavy duty....the difference between the two helm units was roughly $100
the new Seastar helm was $344 (Amazon, no tax, free shipping)
When I originally installed my system I had heavy duty hydraulic lines made up as I thought the tubing that the Baystar came with to be a bit light weight.
I am using Baystar Rams on my twin Yamaha 40 motors and they have never leaked... seems to work just fine.
I also use synthetic steering fluid...much , much less expensive than Seastar fluid...
Joel
SEA3PO |
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Sunbeam
Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 3990
City/Region: Out 'n' About
State or Province: Other
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Sunbeam
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Great info, thanks. It's always nice to hear that a company is improving their products - even (or especially) the "least fancy" ones I also didn't realize that one could "mix and match" the helm unit with the unit back in the splashwell. Don't know if I would want to do that, but it's always nice to know what the options are (I do like the idea of the Sea Star tilt helm - not because I would likely tilt it on a regular basis, but more because it would give me options for where to "set and forget" it for comfort vs. the fixed position of the Bay Star helm). |
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Wandering Sagebrush
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 2770
City/Region: Northeast Oregon
State or Province: OR
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Constant Craving
Photos: Constant Craving
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| Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SEA3PO wrote: | Ha ! I love it...now I will admit to hooking up my automatic trim tabs backwards.... made a hard turn and almost tipped the boat over... like an airplane doing a roll... scared the heck out of me.
<snip>
Joel
SEA3PO |
Since it's true confessions, I reversed the lines when installing my SeaStar. Caught when bleeding the system.
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"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." - Abraham Lincoln |
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