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Boat capsizes in San Diego halibut tournament
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rogerbum



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Nile wrote:
<stuff clipped> For me, this account reinforces my discipline to not venture out in four foot seas. It's one thing if you get surprised by adverse conditions, but to venture out with full knowledge that the sea state is adverse, because you have to be there, as Tom pointed out, is not wise. A broach can happen so quickly in following seas, it is scary. In following seas, a wave coming out of the wrong direction, an abrupt change in bottom elevation, going too fast for conditions -- all can lead to a broach.

Obviously, the captain of this boat is experienced. He just got complacent, as we all have done, but it was his misfortune that a random series of coincidences led to a deleterious outcome. I admire his honesty, and he punched something home to me personally: my wife and I don't usually wear our PFD's while underway, unless the seas pick up. Next season, we are going to wear our devices at all times while underway!

Rich

A rule like "Not venturing out in seas over 4'" doesn't take into account the period of the waves. 4' @10s or greater is some of the nicest/easiest water to boat in that you can find in the ocean, especially if the wind is light. So while of course, you must do what you feel comfortable doing, I would only suggest that you need to know both the height and the period of the wave in order to make a well informed decision. With the wind against the tide situation that this captain experienced, not only were the seas tall but they were probably much more closely spaced at the entrance than they were offshore. For relatively small swells (e.g. <5'), my general rule is that if the period in seconds is 3-4 greater than the height in feet, it's very manageable. When the period in secs. is far greater than the height in feet, the water is easily manageable (assuming light winds in all cases).

I had my 22 in swells that were 8-10' but very long (like 20s) period on a day with fairly light wind. There was no concern then about broaching, etc. The boat bobbed up and down like a cork. It was quite easy to get sea sick, but there was no danger from the swells (other than reduced visibility when you were in the bottom of a swell).

Having the PFD's on at all times is a good idea. The unexpected is well, unexpected and PFD's only work when they're on. I prefer self inflating PFD's since I'm worried about falling out/off the boat and banging my head on something that prevents me from pulling the cord.

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journey on



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pacific coast has a lot of entrances that run east-west and are tidal. The Columbia River is a wonderful example, but the lesser ones are Bandon, Morro Bay, even Oceanside. Hardly surprising since the coast runs (mostly) north-south.

And the winds are from the west, from north-west to south-west. So they tend to blow into the various inlets.

My point here is that any Pacific Coast boater should be familiar with the conditions in these inlets. One look and common sense should prevail. It isn't just wave height or the set of the tide, those inlets just look ugly. I tried going out of Mission Bay years go and the first 2 waves told me how dumb that was. Of course, turning around then became the big problem.

Now why did anybody in the tournament try going out? Well, the guy who capsized was down selling Defiance boats, showing how tough they were. And he was from the Puget sound area, which is inland through the Straits. The Puget Sound can get rough, certainly rougher than Mission Bay but doesn't have narrow wind vs tide channels (I realize this is debatable.) So he saw a chance to prove his boat, didn't give the situation enough respect and lost. In the end, numbers don't quantify the problem, judgement does. Thank God no one died.

Judy thinks Southern California is the calmest area in the world to boat, but it still deserves respect.

Boris
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redbaronace



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this story just goes to show that even with being prepared, having experience, familiarity with an area, thing can still go wrong.

As I sat with my brother in law during dinner telling him of what happened, we both had chills of thinking what we might have done in that situation. I think this will alter what we do in the future and how we make decisions when things look or might turn ugly.

I met Bo (Defiance owner) last year at the Seattle Boat show where he was showcasing Arima and the Defiance line. They had just purchased Arima and I was thanking him for that and wishing him luck with the line. He seemed like a great person and glad to know that the story did not end up as a tragedy.
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C-Nile



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger,

I completely agree with you. Where we go boating, we see short-period waves and often encounter confused seas. Long Island Sound is very shallow, we are sandwiched in-between two major tidal rivers, and we have to contend with robust tidal flows from Plum Gut and the Race. At times, we have encountered longer period waves, and they are actually quite enjoyable. So really, after we all become acquainted with our boats, we begin to understand the prevalent conditions in our areas, understand the limitations of our boats, and we compensate accordingly. The other thing, is that in prior posts, I commented that our boat performed very poorly into head seas exceeding three feet. She can easily take greater than four feet in following seas, and I think this is true for all C-Dory's. In piloting our boat, I have a passenger aircraft captain mentality in that I try to promote as smooth a ride as possible to ease the strain on my boat and passengers. Trust me: if I drove the boat like a bucking bronco over our cruising grounds, there is no way my wife would ever spend three weeks of overnights per year in our boat!

As for the life jackets, you are of course correct. I chose not to get self-inflatable jackets, because we don't fish and we keep the camperback closed while under way. If the boat were to capsize, there would be less chance of becoming trapped in the cabin due to the bulk of an auto-inflated PFD. On the other hand, I am also taking a chance that if I were to fall overboard and strike my head, I could drown. I honestly don't know what the right answer is to this one, but I would think for fisherman that having auto-inflatable PFD's are safer than manual models. (Incidentally, I don't know how big the windows are on C=Dory 22's, but on our Marinaut, the side windows are so large that we would swim right through the open window -- even with my 250 pound weight and large frame! We would not be able to fit through, however, wearing a fully inflated PFD.)

Thanks,

Rich

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T.R. Bauer



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have only one rule for boating and it is don't do anything stupid. I know that is vague and highly subjective but still very good advice. Going out in 20 foot seas in an area that is constricted with an irregular bottom is foolish, arrogant, and something one with "lots of experience," just doesn't do as you KNOW how snotty and dangerous it could potentially be. If he is as experienced as the claims that are being thrown around in his regards, then I agree with Boris he had to be out there trying to show how tough Defiance boats are. I'm sure they are tough, but the most important component in any boat is the brain of the person behind the helm. When that fails or is compromised, then we all know where that leads eventually. I feel bad for him, but again I am glad they made it out realtively unharmed and didn't lose anything of real value (family and friends).
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C-Nile



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with most of the comments, but I think many of you mss the point. Even the most skilled people in their field of endeavor make mistakes. Often, accidents are not the result of one error, but a combination of factors that include misjudgment, a serious of coincidents, or just a string of bad luck. It's so easy to sit back and criticize others for their stupidity, but it really is not about stupidity -- it's about complacency. I admire this man for admitting his mistakes, and for giving his account so that others may learn from those mistakes. But anyone who thinks they will never make a stupid mistake that could lead to serious injury or death -- you should reconsider that view, because with that attitude, you are on a path to complacency that could lead you to a similar fate.

Rich
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Will-C



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: Boat capsizes in San Diego halibut tournament Reply with quote

You can put any kind of spin on anything. I wonder what you call folks that in a lifetime of boating never capsize, sink, run a boat hard aground etc. Lucky, smarter, prudent, more focused, less traveled or candy asses or all the above. Some folks have to learn the hard way. It's serious business, I'm not perfect by any means. My thing is you have to take responsibility for your actions especially when other people are involved. Part of that that is calling a spade a spade. At best in my opinion this event was caused by a serious lapse in judgment. The event came close to being a real tragedy for all the families involved. When I have kids mine or someone else's on my boat I'm especially focused on making them as safe as possible. You can call what happened a collection of unfortunate events but I don't think so. Just my opinion others are free to come to their own conclusions. Pilots have a saying that goes something like this, there are bold pilots and old pilots but not too many old and bold pilots.
D.D.

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westward



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the decision to go out in the conditions mentioned was overly agressive, bordering on foolhardy. Perhaps influenced by an egoic desire to show that Defiance boats can take anything, or perhaps the next incremental step in a lifetime of increasingly rough seas navigated. As with a 4x4 vehicle: do you have the 4x4 for an extra margin of safety while still driving conservatively, or do you let the extra traction get you into even greater trouble? However, the same catastrophe could have happened at a river bar in far less rough conditions. If you can't stay on the backside of the wave you're following in and thusly allow youself to be overtaken by the wave behind you FOR ANY REASON then you are in trouble. At least the captain has his "hat in hand" and is willing to help others avoid his fate. Mike
PS: anyone pick up on the irony that the rescue boat was a little Montauk, safely piloted?
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16Pounder



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading this thread, it seems to me that the boat may have pitch-poled (end over end). One of the issues that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that all 6 people crowded into the pilot house. Assuming these are all adults, that could be 1,200 pounds or more. Add in the weight of the pilot house, tuna tower on top and God knows what else was in the cuddy and you now have a very unbalanced boat for the condition it was exposed too. The guy running the boat said he had the tabs up to lift the bow (which is good) but I suspect all the weight forward prevented the bow from being lifted. Given that he didn't have enough power to stay on the back of the swell, the size and steepness of the swell, and all the weight forward, it's not surprising that it capsized. They were very lucky that no one drowned. Of course, if the swells were big enough and steep enough the position of the weight in the boat wouldn't matter but you need all the help you can get under those conditions.
I have been down 20' swells several times at the inlet to Winter Harbour off Vancouver Island in my little 16 footer and if I have a lot of fish in the fish boxes, I move one to the back and have my 300# brother stand behind the cabin to keep the bow up. It's kind of like a big surf board for him. I was never able to keep up with the swells and stay on the back side so over the top we would go.
So I suppose the point I would make for C-Dory owners would be that if you are in a similar situation, move weight to the back of the boat even if it means someone has to sit back there and get wet. It could mean the difference between an exciting ride or a tradgedy.

Al
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thataway



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The description is far more than compatible with a broach than a pitch pole, which is true end over end. Part of this is due to unequal power between the engines, which would turn the boat sideways. This all happened in 2009. The "Tower" was not a large tower for that size and beam of boat--which is about the minimal size I think a tower should be on. I believe the skippers decision to have the crew inside of the cabin was correct; going into a inlet under those conditions there is more likely hood of a person being thrown out of the boat, than the boat broaching and rolling over.

The entrance to Mission Bay is shoal, and true 20 foot waves there are very unusual. (The ocean floor right before the jetties is at a depth of about 24 feet, with channel far less depending on when it was dredged. I can remember it being shoal enough in the past to be a problem for my sailboats at low tide.) I believe that although there can easily be 20 foot swells which may break on shoals on the entrance to Winter Harbor, there is a deep channel into the fjord type area of Winter Harbor. (Again I don't know exactly where 16 pounder is referring to specifically) I would hate to be in a 16 in 20 foot breaking seas--there a true pitch pole would be possible--and the inability to stay on the top of a wave could be fatal.

As for C Nile's comments--yes, we hear more about those who make the huge errors--some out of ignorance, and some out of lack of paying attention. The true mariners who do not have any accidents are mostly professionals or semi professionals with a lot of experience, and a high situational awareness. This awareness of both the sea state, the boat's capability, the crews capability, and options available--plus mitigating circumstances--in this case the line wrapped around the prop which did not allow full thrust from the one engine.

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westward



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a good youtube if you've got a half hour to kill: Crossing the Bar "Getting it Wrong" Part 1
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AstoriaDave



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westward wrote:
Here's a good youtube if you've got a half hour to kill: Crossing the Bar "Getting it Wrong" Part 1
Missing link?
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Blueback



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

16Pounder wrote:
After reading this thread, it seems to me that the boat may have pitch-poled (end over end). One of the issues that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that all 6 people crowded into the pilot house. Assuming these are all adults, that could be 1,200 pounds or more. Add in the weight of the pilot house, tuna tower on top and God knows what else was in the cuddy and you now have a very unbalanced boat for the condition it was exposed too. The guy running the boat said he had the tabs up to lift the bow (which is good) but I suspect all the weight forward prevented the bow from being lifted. Given that he didn't have enough power to stay on the back of the swell, the size and steepness of the swell, and all the weight forward, it's not surprising that it capsized. They were very lucky that no one drowned. Of course, if the swells were big enough and steep enough the position of the weight in the boat wouldn't matter but you need all the help you can get under those conditions.
I have been down 20' swells several times at the inlet to Winter Harbour off Vancouver Island in my little 16 footer and if I have a lot of fish in the fish boxes, I move one to the back and have my 300# brother stand behind the cabin to keep the bow up. It's kind of like a big surf board for him. I was never able to keep up with the swells and stay on the back side so over the top we would go.
So I suppose the point I would make for C-Dory owners would be that if you are in a similar situation, move weight to the back of the boat even if it means someone has to sit back there and get wet. It could mean the difference between an exciting ride or a tradgedy.

Al

I asked a question on a 16' C-Dory thread about the worse conditions encounter on a 16 footer C-Dory and how secure it felt. There was little response until I read your response to the vessel that foundered and broached/pitch-poled.
So now I would like to drill down on story of 20' foot swells "Winter Harbor" -- how well did she handle --etc.
thanks
Blueback

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C-Nile



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blueback,

When I was very inexperienced, I hit a 6 foot standing wave at Plum Gut head on. It scared the heck out of me. The boat went nearly vertical, and I applied full power out of fear she would slip backwards and dowse the engine. It was really stupid, but part of the problem with the CD-16 is that it is hard to stand up in her cabin when you are a tall person. So you will find yourself sitting down low behind the wheel with poor visibility. I did not realize how bad the wave was until I reached it, and by that time, it was too late.

On another occasion, I traveled between the wave troughs at an angle in 6 foot waves. The waves were so high that they seemed to tower over me when I was in the trough. The boat was kept level by powering into the oncoming wave, and immediately throttling back to allow the momentum of the boat to carry through. It was like being in a washing machine.

I have been all kinds of conditions. The CD-16 does not like short-period head seas of 2 feet or more. I think I would have been able to sustain greater head seas had I had a Permatrim like so many C-Brats recommended. The Permatrim would have allowed me to travel slowly while keeping the bow down. At slow speeds, it is next to impossible to keep the bow down of a CD-16 Cruiser, because she is only 16 feet long, and tends to be stern heavy.

The biggest seas she was in was about 7 or feet, but they were rollers! It was a lot of fun.

Frankly, any more than 3 feet short duration waves, and I would stay at port with a CD-16. Any more than 5 foot waves has the potential for broaching your boat if you do something stupid like going too fast in a following sea, falling off of a wave and sticking the bow at an angle. I can say, however, that on another occasions I fell off of waves, crashed nose-first into the oncoming wave, and a giant wall of water issued forth with no ill effects. She is an amazing boat, because even though she is stern heavy, and has a lot of roll in the stern, her bow is extremely stable. It seemed to me that the more pressure was applied to the bow, the more stable she became.

All in all, the CD-16 Cruiser was a wonderful boat for a novice, because I got to live to tell my stories of my lack of judgement. She really can cover for your mistakes, but really, I would not recommend using her in heavy seas. In other words, if the NOAA issues small craft warnings, stay in port!

Rich
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Blueback



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Nile wrote:
Blueback,

When I was very inexperienced, I hit a 6 foot standing wave at Plum Gut head on. It scared the heck out of me. The boat went nearly vertical, and I applied full power out of fear she would slip backwards and dowse the engine. It was really stupid, but part of the problem with the CD-16 is that it is hard to stand up in her cabin when you are a tall person. So you will find yourself sitting down low behind the wheel with poor visibility. I did not realize how bad the wave was until I reached it, and by that time, it was too late.

On another occasion, I traveled between the wave troughs at an angle in 6 foot waves. The waves were so high that they seemed to tower over me when I was in the trough. The boat was kept level by powering into the oncoming wave, and immediately throttling back to allow the momentum of the boat to carry through. It was like being in a washing machine.

I have been all kinds of conditions. The CD-16 does not like short-period head seas of 2 feet or more. I think I would have been able to sustain greater head seas had I had a Permatrim like so many C-Brats recommended. The Permatrim would have allowed me to travel slowly while keeping the bow down. At slow speeds, it is next to impossible to keep the bow down of a CD-16 Cruiser, because she is only 16 feet long, and tends to be stern heavy.

The biggest seas she was in was about 7 or feet, but they were rollers! It was a lot of fun.

Frankly, any more than 3 feet short duration waves, and I would stay at port with a CD-16. Any more than 5 foot waves has the potential for broaching your boat if you do something stupid like going too fast in a following sea, falling off of a wave and sticking the bow at an angle. I can say, however, that on another occasions I fell off of waves, crashed nose-first into the oncoming wave, and a giant wall of water issued forth with no ill effects. She is an amazing boat, because even though she is stern heavy, and has a lot of roll in the stern, her bow is extremely stable. It seemed to me that the more pressure was applied to the bow, the more stable she became.

All in all, the CD-16 Cruiser was a wonderful boat for a novice, because I got to live to tell my stories of my lack of judgement. She really can cover for your mistakes, but really, I would not recommend using her in heavy seas. In other words, if the NOAA issues small craft warnings, stay in port!

Rich

Thanks - C-Nile
Thats the type of info I was asking for. Yikes- you have really put the 16' er to the wall and came back to tell about. My worst occasion was in the Fraser (broad fast flowing river) and a "big" deep draft, ocean tug left the dock facing upstream and pulled a full power 180 degree turn to go downstream. I was about 200 ft or less away from the huge wake this tug created at the tail out of this turn. I turn into the wake at an idle and as we hit it I went to full power as I could have broached it was that high. I also said to my passenger "hang on" this is going to stand us right up" and it did hit so hard she was thrown right off her seat onto the cockpit floor. Part of the wave broke over the hatch combing.
That skipper should have had a suspension from helm duties but thems the breaks we face at times with idiots with too much power.
If I had to face this again I think I would power into a hard 180 from the wave and run it out before taking it on my stern.
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