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Mystery electrical system problem - not sure how to proceed.
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Sunbeam, when leaving the boat for any length of time, disconnect the + battery cables. If the boat is in the water, then the bilge pump auto circuit would have to be left connected. I have never had any issue with ACR depleting the batteries over days.


Now that I re-wired the ACR, I don't seem to have any drains at all, so just turning off the battery switch does the trick. When I noticed the drain before, it was over weeks/months, not days. I forget how much they said it was, but it's very small. I actually thought it might be something else at first. But then someone (I forget whom) mentioned that the ACR would constantly draw a small load, so I called Blue Sea and asked about that. They said that yes, it does. Then they suggested a couple of ways to change that, the way I wired it being one of them. Now the batteries basically stay just how I left them.

It would be unhandy for me to disconnect my positive battery cable (vs. turning the switch to "off"), so unless there is a problem with it, I would prefer to leave that part of it as-is. Once I move the main fuse to the "downstream" side of the switch, is there a problem with the way I have the ACR wired?

thataway wrote:
Ray, you don't run with the switch on combine, that is why there is the ACR. Pretty much established that a surge when the batteries are combined thru the ACR, that could blow the 30 amp fuse. Looks as if this has been changed.
Only Sunbeam knows exactly how this is wired.


I think it's wired just how AK Angler drew it in the diagram. I do hear what Ray and others said about what could happen (in the future) if I left the main fuse on the "upstream" side of the switch. That's why I plan to move it now. That said, as far as the "mystery" goes, that wasn't the problem. i.e. up to this point in time, I have not seen any problem with the main fuse when either the ACR or a human combined the batteries (rather the problem occurred as it switched itself to "isolate." But as I said, I see the value in avoiding the prospect and am glad it was brought up. Why miss the chance to have expert C-Brats help me to improve the overall boat? I'm looking at it as an opportunity.

thataway wrote:
Ref. the tt relay, if you put it on the diagram should be shown properly.


I'm not sure what's incorrect there now, but I'd be happy to fix it. Initially, AK Angler was asking about the components that were potentially involved in the "mystery." At that point in time the trim tabs had been cleared of any involvement (and were actually disconnected), so I may not have noticed that they were not shown 100% correctly (in my mind it was kind of like the line that trails off to "house loads." However I believe we did notice and fix that subsequently (he added a part, and then I added the inline fuse in the drawing above). If it's still not clear I can try to modify it again -- I'm not an ace electrical artist, that's for sure.


thataway wrote:
Back to the Gulf Coa st gathering.


Sounds fun Thumbs Up

Sunbeam
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure so many of you are just thinking "Gee, it's been hours and no post in the electrical thread - what ever will we do with our time?" Wink

I'm waiting for the new ACR (due to the weekend it will not be here until Monday Cry), and in the meantime - between bouts of cleaning and carb draining and such - planning out how to modify the electrical system (not because of the "mystery" problem, but because, over the course of the thread, I've learned more and - thanks to you all - found some areas that could be improved upon).

I have worked out a way to rearrange things to put the main fuse (or maybe I'll change it to a breaker) on the correct side of the main switch, and that's perfectly doable (with a few more Blue Sea goodies, of course, but I can handle that).

But I'm also re-evaluating whether I even want the ACR at all. I had it put in as sort of a given it was the way to go, but now I have a chance to re-evaluate. It is handy, and even though one seems to have been defective (we'll find out for sure on Monday), I know the odds are that I won't have another failure.

It definitely makes for more wiring components and complication (although once they are installed they basically just sit there, and it's not like I'm going to be using the lazarette for anything else anyway). But OTOH, there is a certain satisfaction in simplicity and in fewer "black boxes." And I'm typically good at adhering to an established routine aboard (such as manually moving the battery switch).

So... not sure which way I'll go yet, but I'm mulling. I won't be changing anything until at least Tuesday because I want to put in the replacement ACR without changing any other variables, so I have time to think it over (and to add or subtract things from the shopping cart).

Sunbeam
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ghone



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering how to fill my day!! My boat is in the canvas shop till tomorrow so I'm following your thread. I don't have the ACR, my boat was factory wired and a nice job was done. Circuit breakers and few black boxes. I like hard wired to buss bars and battery switches and keep it simple and easy. With only two batteries aboard and only one house battery it's easy to keep track of for me. So no ACR for me. Hope it's the issue for you. George
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

Thanks to Blue Sea's great customer service, the new ACR arrived today via UPS, along with a call tag for me to send the original one back.

We got right to it and "out with the old; in with the new," plus, as long as we were at it we installed the recommended 10 amp fuse on the ground wire. I purposely haven't made any of the other changes because I didn't want to change more variables. I'm not going to be using the boat again right away, so I have some time for that going forward.

So, we had purposely not charged things up too high, because we wanted the voltage to be close to the ~12.75 that is where the ACR combines and isolates, for testing purposes. So for starters we put the charger on until the voltage got to about 12.86 and we saw that the ACR "combined." Then we turned on the GPS, VHF, and depth sounder and watched the battery monitor as the voltage dropped. When it got down to around 12.79 my buddy went out and watched the ACR like a hawk while I called out the voltage readings. Sure enough, right at around 12.75 the ACR isolated, as it should (and as the old one did). The difference being that.... nothing blew! Then we did a repeat and.... still nothing blew Thumbs Up

Now, of course we can't be 100% sure this is solved; but since the original ACR was blowing a 10 amp fuse consistently as it switched itself to "isolate" (toward the end), this is a very good sign. I feel hopeful we have solved the mystery. I think Blue Sea is going to test the original ACR, and I'm very interested in what they might find.

********

Next up: I'm going to decide whether or not I want to keep an ACR in the system, or go manual. Either way, I'm going to move the main fuse "downstream" of the switch, plus tidy up behind the helm and run a larger gauge feed wire to accommodate future draws (and then adjust the main fuse size accordingly). If I keep the ACR, I'll be adding two fuses (one in each wire, A and B), plus wiring up the start isolate feature to the engine start wiring. I have it sketched out and a list of what to acquire, but.... going to think about it a bit first.

*********
And one "oopsie!" to explain. I think it was earlier in this (book length!) thread that we talked about engine charging and SOC. I had noted that my engine seemed to get the batteries up to 100%... but from everything I had read, the charger on an outboard is really too primitive to do that (more typically it will get up to 85%, if I understand correctly).

That nagged at me, and I started going back over everything with my buddy, and finally the penny dropped: When we got out on the water, both he and I had lots to do ("new" boat/gear stuff), and he happened to be the one who calibrated the Victron (easy to do, but it's calibrating it that gives you the SOC percentage baseline). Well, he didn't realize that an outboard really never gets the batteries up to 100%, so he waited until the battery wasn't accepting any more charge (from the outboard) and then calibrated it to be full (which is basically what one does). So no wonder my outboard seemed to be that one special flower that charged like a miracle. Glad I kept the SOC up for most of the trip (so that even with the mis-calibration I was not under 50%).

So, I think we'll have to re-calibrate after my "land" charger gives it a "real" 100% charge (easy to do though).

Thanks for "coming along" on the mystery tour Very Happy I will update as/when any new information comes my way.

Sunbeam
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AK Angler



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that is exciting news, indeed!

And although I can't figure out what kind of internal ACR failure would cause that fuse to blow, I fully admit to being ignorant about such devices - I just don't know how they work. But, it does appear that the new unit has solved the problem.

And, I'd certainly be interested to hear what went wrong with the old ACR. But, I doubt we ever will... Manufacturer's usually don't advertise that kind of stuff.

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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AK Angler wrote:
Well, that is exciting news, indeed!


And let's hope it stays that way through further use/testing (which won't be for awhile).

AK Angler wrote:
And although I can't figure out what kind of internal ACR failure would cause that fuse to blow, I fully admit to being ignorant about such devices - I just don't know how they work.


I hear you. And it's not even like you turn the thing over and see "stuff" on the back - it's just a blank black surface. I think they said there are a couple of relays inside, plus... a circuit board? I kind of wanted to saw it in half and look!

AK Angler wrote:
And, I'd certainly be interested to hear what went wrong with the old ACR. But, I doubt we ever will... Manufacturer's usually don't advertise that kind of stuff.


True, but I'm going to get in touch with them and at least ask. And heck, I don't expect every electrical device to be perfect - some of them have to have failures (and now I actually hope this one did). I'm just so curious what they will find. They certainly were great about exchanging it for me (and having your electrical diagram when I was on the phone with them was great).

Sunbeam

PS: And just for the (ongoing) record (added fuse in ACR ground wire). I'll probably have to come up with a new drawing for the next iteration - might be beyond annotation.

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C-Nile



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very valuable thread for people with Blue Seas ACR's. Thank you.
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Nile wrote:
This is a very valuable thread for people with Blue Seas ACR's. Thank you.


I'm glad you found it useful. I sure learned some things (such as, even if a pro hooks it up, double check things against the instructions and diagrams and at least get a handle on why things were done the way they were; and.... lots about how to improve my behind-helm wiring). Presuming I keep the ACR in the system, I'll be adding some fuses and rearranging a few things.

I really do hope Blue Sea can/will test the one I'm sending back, because if it is defective, well wouldn't that be a nice "for sure" relief. If it isn't.... well, let's cross that bridge if/when we need to Smile

Blue Sea as a company came through with flying colors though, in my book Thumbs Up
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AK Angler



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunbeam wrote:
PS: And just for the (ongoing) record (added fuse in ACR ground wire). I'll probably have to come up with a new drawing for the next iteration - might be beyond annotation.


It wouldn't take much for me to clean up that drawing if you want a clean schematic before you start making changes. Let me know if you think it would help.
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AK Angler wrote:
It wouldn't take much for me to clean up that drawing if you want a clean schematic before you start making changes. Let me know if you think it would help.


Thank you so much - I'll keep that in mind when I get to re-arranging Thumbs Up
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought I would update the thread.

When Blue Sea sent me out a replacement ACR, they also sent a call tag for me to return the one that seemed to be causing my problem. Once it got back to them, one of their techs "sawed it in half" and checked it over. He said that while it did work, it took a very long time to combine (i.e. longer than they usually do). At that time, he was trying to figure out how that would cause my fuse to blow when it combined.

I clarified that I never had a problem when it combined, but rather it was when it isolated. He couldn't immediately think of any reason it would cause that, but said he would talk it over with some other folks at Blue Sea. The new ACR seems to have solved my problem, but of course I'm still curious about the original one.

Once I had put in the new ACR and tested it with things arranged as they had been (so as not to change a bunch of variables), I made some changes to the electrical system based on new things I had learned.

1) Added the 10 amp fuse to the ground wire on the ACR, as recommended.

2) Moved the main fuse to the "downstream" side of the main battery switch*.

Once I get supplies, I'll be upsizing the helm feed wire (and then the main fuse to correspond properly) and tidying up behind the helm (not really changing anything fundamentally there, but putting in a new/larger fuse block, labeling and organizing, etc.).

*More detail on #2:
I didn't move any components physically, but changed some wiring around.

a) What was a positive bus downstream from the main battery switch is now functioning as a "power post" between the house battery and the main switch, and handles the two bilge pump leads (which want to be "hot" all the time). They each have an inline, water-resistant blade fuse. I'm not at the boat now, but IIRC, I also moved the positive wire for the battery monitor shunt there (was on the house battery positive post).

b) The Safety Hub, which is now downstream of the switch, (still) has the helm feed wire/fuse in one of the "big" AMI/Midi fuse spots - and now one of the blade fuse slots is used for the trim tab feed.

I'm not sure whether I will hook up the start isolation function on the ACR. I started to do that, and found that I needed to connect it to the brown wire in my engine ignition circuit. One end of that is in the Yamaha engine control box next to the helm seat. I opened that up but it doesn't look like a "nice" spot to add a butt connector/wire (pretty tight in there). I think the other option would be inside the engine where the wires come into it, but I'm not super keen to take that apart again (although I may) (I had it all apart when I replaced the fuel hose from the Racor into the internal Yamaha fuel filter).

In speaking with Blue Sea, they felt that with a main in the 80-90 hp range, start isolation wasn't really necessary. Anyone have any agreement/disagreement on that? Obviously I have not had any issue yet, and if I don't need it, great, one less finicky wiring job to do. OTOH, if it is necessary, then I'm going to hook it up, even if it is difficult.

Sunbeam
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Ray



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No start isolation on my installation with a Honda 150. No issues for me (yet).
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AK Angler



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before I upgraded the wiring system on my Arima, I was getting 'brown outs' whenever I cranked the starter on my motor. (In fact, it was because of these 'brown outs' that I decided to do such a substantial upgrade in the first place.) Anyway, as part of the wiring upgrades, I installed better batteries, increased wire sizes, dedicated the house battery to house loads, AND I installed the 'start isolation' wire from the ACR to the motor. So, while I can say that I have never had a brown out since the upgrade, I couldn't tell you if it's because of the start isolation wire or not. But, if I had to do it all over again, I'd still hook up that wire - even though getting it routed into the engine was a total pain, and it's probably not absolutely necessary.
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nimrod



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunbeam,

If not too much bother, it would be great to see a schematic of your "new, improved" wiring. Or even a photo, we love photos.

jd
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nimrod wrote:
Sunbeam,

If not too much bother, it would be great to see a schematic of your "new, improved" wiring. Or even a photo, we love photos.

jd


I can't take a photo right now, because I'm not with the boat (withdrawal Crying or Very sad ). But I'll see if I can adapt the nice drawing that AK Angler made for me.

What I really can't WAIT to get into is tidying up the behind-helm area. Now that I understand it better, and have a plan, I think it's going to be really satisfying. (I'm not going to change the function, really, but just make it nicer.)
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