Bilge Pump Install

[Swee Pea]

This is for the dumb question of the month club. I need to replace the "mounting bracket" that the bilge pump snaps into ( The blue piece that holds the screen in place) Seems that one of the snap links broke off. Does anyone know how this bracket is attached or secured to the deck? I looked at my installation and it is not screwed in. The four holes seem to have some plastic or something holding it onto the deck. Is this just glued in place or am I missing something here?

Inquiring minds want to know.

John
Swee Pea

[BOMBERO]

HEY SWEET PEA

I JUST INSTALLED MY BILGE PUMP WITH HELP FROM DAVE ON CUTE=C

....NOVEL IDEA AND IT WORKS GREAT

THE PUMP IS NOT INSTALLED OR FASTENED TO THE DECK

IT IS PLACED IN A 3 INCH PIECE OF ABS PIPE.....ABOUT 8 INCHES LONG

CAN BE SHORTER AND CAN BE LARGER OR SMALLER DIAMETER PIPE....DEPENDING ON THE SIZE AND SHAPE OF YOUR PUMP;


IT ALLOWS YOU TO REMOVE THE PUMP EASILY TO CLEAR CLOGS OF FISH SCALES OR WHATEVER.....AND JUST PLACE IT BACK IN THE PIPE, WHERE IT IS SECURLY HELD IN PLACE

SEE A PICTURE OF IT IN BOMBERO PHOTO ALBUM

")

ROB

[Alyssa Jean]

[flagold]

The heavy duty epoxy is the correct way (in lieu of screws though the floor) -- make sure it goes back down secure, as the torque from the motor will overturn it and leave you not pumping when you might need it the most. At worst, it will overturn, and snap the hose.

[Swee Pea]

Rob:

How high do you hold the pvc off the deck?

John
Swee Pea

[El and Bill]

What heavy duty epoxy do you folks use?

[BOMBERO]

HELLO JOHN

THAT IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION.......AS I MISSED TELLING THAT PART

MINE HAS A SERIES OF 3/4 INCH HOLES AROUND THE BOTTOM OF THE PIPE.......THEN THE PIPE WAS CUT OFF THRU THE CENTRE OF ALL THESE ADJOINING HOLES.......WHICH GAVE A WAVEY BOTTOM AGAINST THE DECK.

BUT I THINK A BETTER AND EASIER WAY WOULD BE TO JUST FASTEN THE PIPE ABOUT 1 INCH ABOVE THE DECK.

WHEN THE PUMP IS IN THE PIPE......IT DOES NOT MOVE....OR LIFT....NOR CAN IT TIP OVER.

NO EPOXY OR DECK FASTENING REQUIRED......AS THE PIPE IS SCREWED SOLIDLY TO THE STERN OR BULKHEAD......SO THE PUMP CAN BE CLEANED OF CLOGS BY JUST LIFTING IT OUT......OR REPLACED IN THE EVENT OF OLD AGE OR TO INSTALL A LARGER UNIT IF NEED ARISES .

I WAS IN YOUR POSITION OF WONDERING HOW BEST TO FASTEN IT TO THE DECK........WHEN DAVE SHOWED ME HOW HE INSTALLED HIS IN HIS 16 ANGLER..."CUTE-C"

HE HAS HAD HIS INSTALLED THIS WAY FOR A LONG TIME WITH LOTS OF ROUGH AND WET DAYS.......WITH NO PROBLEMS AND OBVIOUS ADVANTAGES.

THE PICTURES OF IT ARE IN BOMBERO PHOTO ALBUM.

HOPE THAT HELPS SOME JOHN

")
ROB

[dogon dory]

Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author

[Captains Cat]

Dan, there have been several bilge pump locations over the years. Mine, a '94. has only one pump, all the way aft near the drain hole. Some, I've seen in later versions have a little well on the stbd side of the cabin bulkhead and either a second pump or maybe only this one pump, not sure. Mine, when in the water and unloaded (except for gas), accumulates water at the cabin bulkhead where there is no pump. As a result, I keep a plug in the hole under the cabin door, otherwise the carpet in the cabin gets wet!

My pump is original, automatic or manual and I keep it on automatic when the boat is in the water. Never had a battery problem or excess water in the cockpit.

Charlie

[flagold]

El & Bill:

I use the long-dry JB Weld for practically all I do now. The short-dry time JB can be brittle (I think it dries to fast). I always carry some on the boat.

To everyone: I'm not lobbying for or against the pipe -- it sounds like a good way to go.

My boat has the well in the cabin, kind of sort of works but no cigar for camping, the boat sits forward on bunks, and water builds up so if the plug to the cabin was removed, I'd get a wet floor too. Similar if a spring shower comes with no wind, water builds up. I installed an additional pump near the drain plug, but unfortunately is an all in one pump (no seperate float switch) and does not activate for small amounts of water -- so I just live with it.

[rogerbum]

I just bought a new bilge pump for the SeaDNA - a 22' CD with the bilge well spanning the starboard side of the cabin bulkhead. The newer CD22's have the bilge well centered and spanning the threshold to the door. This is a big improvement relative to the starboard side and if I were a brave man (I'm not), I'd be tempted to create a new cut-out, move the bilge well to the center and glass over the old one. However the idea of cutting into the deck scares me too much to take this project on.

One thing they did get right on the new Toland CD knock-off is to slope the floor away from the bulkhead and put the bilge aft. Dogon may be heavy at the transom under normal loading to have all the water collect aft (you know those Alaskans can catch more and bigger fish than the rest of us). IMHO, it would be nice if the CD 22's get modified to have an aft sloping floor as under most conditions water collects at the door.

My situation is a bit worse as at present, I find it necessary to store my boat on a slight down-hill slope towards the bow so when it rains (even with the canvas camper on) water accumulates in front of the door. My "solution" to this was to buy a fully automatic Rule 500 GPH and wire it with about 15' of cable terminating in a cigarette lighter plug. I plug it in when I park the trailer, run the cable out the door, put the pump directly in front of the door and put a down rigger weight on to hold it until the next outing. Not the best overall solution but quicker than moving the 10 or so cubic yds of dirt I'll have to move to get the parking spot sloping the direction I want (I don't have a tractor like DaNag for this...). This spare pump can be placed anywhere there's water so I like to have it around.

In addition, as was in a previous discussion, I've found the fully automatic Rule pumps fail after about 2 years of operation (e.g. when left on). Hence the new (forward) bilge pump will be a Rulemate 1100 (with the fully enclosed float switch). This is what the factory uses now and it won't fit in a pipe like the old ones. In addition, I'll be installing another Rule 1100 (this one with the external float switch) in the aft bilge well. A previous post indicated that my old fully automatic 1100 may still work if I bypass the fancy computer so I am hoping I can save it as a spare to use with the external float switch.

Other reading on the site and elsewhere indicates that it's probably good to have two permanently installed bilge pumps to give about double the capacity of what comes from the factory. Finally, I also have a hand operated bilge pump as that (or a hand bailer) is a requirement for Canadian waters. The hand operated pump has come in handy around the house for emptying the christmas tree stand, emptying a fountain etc. so it was also a good purchase.

Swee pea - if you haven't yet installed the bilge pump, you might want to consider the RuleMate as opposed to the fully automatic Rule. The RuleMate won't cycle on and off every 5-10 mins so it's easier to sleep on board and I think it will last longer if you must leave it on all the time (e.g. moored or parked on a down hill slope toward the bow). Also, the RuleMate runs for 15-30 seconds after the bilge is detected as empty and the claim is that this gets the overall level quite low. I'll see how it works once I get my in - (maybe this evening).

Finally, another question for the C-brat experts - The Rule Mate comes with three wires one for ground and two to go to 12 V through a recommended 3-way switch made by Rule. The idea is that one wire supplies 12V all the time and goes through the float switch (e.g. this wire is only connected to the pump when there is water in the bilge), while the other is switch to the pump manually. The std. installation has a lighted Rule 3-way switch in a panel at the helm - Off, auto and Man are the 3-positions. I'd like to wire mine to two single pole switches. The current on-off bilge switch at the helm would be connected to the wire that goes through the float switch, while I'd like to install another switch nearer to the bulk head (perhaps a weather-proof switch through the bulk head) for the manual mode. This would allow me to manually operate the bilge from the cockpit (where I can see the water level) as opposed to at the helm (where I cannot). The only concern I have with this plan is that I am not sure if the recommended 3-way switch from Rule disconnects the 12V supply from the automatic wire before applying it to the manual wire and if it does, is it necessary? These things have some electronic brains in them and maybe you can't have 12 V applied to both wires at the same time for some reason unknown to me. Anyone know the answer to this? Or can anyone determine how the 3-way switch actually operates in practice? The wiring diagram that came with the pump shows how to connect to the switch but does not symbolically represent what the switch is doing so I can't tell without going to the store to buy or try one.

Roger on the SeaDNA

[BOMBERO]

HI ROGER

I AM JUST WIREING MY PUMP NOW

IT IS A 2 WIRE PUMP AND IT WILL BE CONNECTED TO A 3 WIRE SWITCH

1 WIRE FOR AUTO THROUGH A WATER ACTIVATED FOOT VALVE.....1 WIRE FOR MANUAL OPERATION

THE SWITCH HAS OFF....AUTO...MANUAL OPERATION WITH A RED LIGHT ON WHEN POWER IS GOING TO PUMP....WETHER MANUAL OR AUTO.

I WILL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT WORKS ....AND.....IF IT WORKS.

I AM NOT THE BEST WITH THINGS ELECTRIC......BUT STUDIED THE WIREING DIAGRAM A WHILE........AND I THINK THE MUD IS CLEARING UP A LITTLE.
")


ROB

[Sea Wolf]

Roger-
Good idea for installing the pump and switches for your convenience of operation. However, I've never read nor heard of the very good question you're asking, but I'd go directly to Rule/Jabsco's technical advice service before doing anything that goes against the specific installation instructions.

It's easy to assume that the pump power supply wires are simply in parallel and it makes no difference to the motor whether the power comes through the float switch or the bypass manual override switch, but if there is indeed a "brain" on the float side to cause the pump to stay on for 30 seconds or so to help purge the drain tube, you could be sending it the wrong signal by wiring up the way you have indicated.

You could use a single pole, double throw switch (on-off-on) in the front, so that in one "on" position the float system would be activated, and in the other "on" position the power would be routed back to activate the rear manual switch, thus avoiding the "double on" condition. This should work, but again, to be sure there's no electronic hobgoblins awaiting you in the "black box" inside the pump, a call or e-mail to the manufacturer would clear up the questions quickly.

Quality manufactures (usually) have good technical service advisors available who are very willing to help us solve these kinds of problems and most are fun to talk to and share ideas!

On another note, I still think the ultimate way to solve the floor problem would be to fill in the floor from the doorway back to the engine well with a mixture of resin, microballoons, and cabosil filler. Reslope the floor with this mixture poured in and allowed to gravity flow to a tilted back level floor bed before hardening. But that project is a whole other discussion for another thread someday! (Note: While I think th is would be the best solution, I've never wanted to do it to my boat because I don't at all want to raise the level of the floor above the cabin floor as I know I'll be bumping my head for some time getting used to it, and I don't really need it since I operate on inland lakes and in covered marina moorage, mostly.)

Good luck with your project! Joe.

[Swee Pea]

Roger:

I'm not installing a new bilge pump. I just need to replace the bracket that attaches to the floor because one of the hold down tabs broke off. I too have the automatic bilge that recycles constantly. Lucky for me it still works, but you have to constantly keep the area clean. If the smallest amount of debris gets around the grate, no water is pumped. I guess by cleaning this filter constantly, the tab broke. So I have a new grate, but the in pipe install is interesting. I need to see if there is enough room for this type of install in the small center "well".
I am not excited about using screws; definitely not in the deck. I'm thinking if the pipe will fit, I can glue it to the wall of the center well (file a flat on the pipe and put a bead of JB Weld). I've got to look and play with it. It would seem that the pipe install would allow easier clean out of the bilge well area.
Thinking about this, the pipe should be off the deck so when the pump is lifted out for cleaning, you can clean the space under the pipe where crud accumulates.
At worst, I will remove and chisel the old install and replace as original.
I suppose that in the future, if the auto bilge pump fails, I will replace with what the factory is now putting in.
I was originally told why the automatic bilge was chosen for install; had something to do with the unique middle of the boat location or something.
I had another bilge pump installed by Cutter in the transom well and they put in another automatic pump.
Like frogs in the night. The sound of croaking. But I must say Swee Pea is dry. Knock on wood.

John
Swee Pea

[gljjr]

For the pipe install I would get a small piece of starboard and cut a half circle on one edge to glue onto the pipe. Then you have a flat surface to epoxy onto the hull. And in fact if you used 2 pieces you would have a very strong mount. I don't think just sanding the pipe flat would give you enough surface area to have a good bond unless you were mounting in a corner to get two sides epoxied.