Ack!!! This is why I like to do things myself.

mgarr682

Over the years I've been asked many times why I did some job myself rather than just paying to have it done. Sometimes I do it to save money but often I do it myself just so I know it was done properly and I won't have to worry about it in the future. This is a perfect example of that, why I should have installed the trim tabs myself rather than ordering them on the boat.

First let me say this. I've never owned a boat with trim tabs and I'm not convinced they are necessary on a 22' boat. My experiences with trim tabs have all been aboard other people's boats, all larger than the 22 Angler. For the most part my observations of their use has been, a. the operator never touched them, b. the operator fiddled with them constantly and I couldn't see that they made any difference, or c. they were broken.

With that in mind I had originally planned to order the boat without trim tabs and install them myself in the future should I decide that I needed or wanted them. After talking with the dealer about what installation entailed I decided to just order them from the factory. I wish I had waited and done it myself.

The last thing I wanted to get done before launching my C-Dory for the first time was fixing a couple of stripped screws in the hinge plates (where the trim tab is attached to the hull). I figured whoever installed them got carried away with the electric screwdriver and just stirpped the hole. While that is probably the case, here is what I found when I pulled the two screws.

See where my thumbnail touched that toothpick? That's how deep the hole is. That's the mounting screw beside it. The other stripped screw was the same. There was the usual goop type sealer at the mouth of the hole and approximated 1/8 inch into the hole.

When I'm drilling a blind hole for a mounting screw, particularly into the hull, after selecting the proper diameter bit I lay the screw along side the drill bit and wrap a piece of tape around the bit to let me know how deep to drill. It usually takes less than 30 seconds and prevents voids in the hull that can weaken it or allow water to collect that can cause blisters, delamination or rot in the balsa core.

Had I done this job myself there wouldn't be twelve one inch long voids in my hull to cause trouble in the future.

ACK!

Sunbeam · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject:

Well that's aggravating! I was just talking with a friend this morning, because (and I know I do this) I tend to "lose" a lot of time because I want to do everything myself, vs. just going ahead and letting a pro do it. I have "trust issues." Wink

But you know what? The two jobs I did have done by the pros I'm having to re-do anyway. And not just because I'm being too persnickety, but because they were not usable as-completed. Hmmph!

I'm especially keen on having things "right" that are below the waterline on a cored hull, so I would have to re-mount those trim planes. Not just because of the overlong holes, but also because I'm not going to trust just caulk to keep the core dry (that said, it probably does work to a certain extent, especially on a "dry sailed" boat, but I would not be able to stop worrying about it). But too, I can see why you did order the boat with them already installed, as it was (for me anyway, doing it the first time) a finicky job (not difficult, but time consuming as I checked and re-checked, etc.).

What I did for the trim planes (and the actuator tops) was drill a slightly oversized hole around 1-1/4" deep. I think I used a 7/16" or 1/2" drill bit. That allowed me to get in there with a Dremel and hollow out plenty of core all the way around (in other words, I "back cut" it). I then filled those holes up with thickened epoxy, and then after it had cured I re-drilled and tapped for 1/4"-20 cap screws (on the Bennetts the planes are intended for #10 screws, so I eased the holes slightly on a drill press). On the actuator holes I basically ended up with one big empty spot that I filled (the three fasteners plus the pipe nipple for the hydraulic line). I could also have set waxed "pointy screws" into the epoxy, but I felt that trying to get the holes filled with no air pockets was enough to do in one stage, without having to fool around with screws. That said, I could also have driven them into green epoxy. I just decided to tap... just because.

I then dry fit everything and that's the stage I'm at now. Final installation is awaiting a small gel coat repair that's really close to the plane (where my transducer was originally). I agree that it's a detail-filled installation. I haven't even started the electrical part yet (not my forte!).

Anyway, I sure can understand your frustration. Sorry you're having that experience Neutral

Sunbeam

PS: My long-winded description above wasn't because I don't figure you know what you are doing if you had installed them yourself. I get that you simply requested them done in order for you to not have to! I hope you can get things squared away soon so that you can enjoy your wonderful new boat Thumbs Up

thataway · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject:

First the trim tabs are a very good addition to the C Dory 22. They allow both balance from Port to Starboard, and help to get the bow down in chop (A Permatrim will also help, in addition to the Trim tabs). Both are necessary to get the most out of your boat.

The problem is that there is only a relitatively small amount of glass on the exterior of the transom--and I am sure that the screws are put in with a power driver at the factory. Best practice is to drill the holes an over size, undercut (although the current boats are foam transoms, so rot is not an issue, you don't want water in the transom, there may be some balsa core to the back of the boat at the transom--not sure about current boats) then fill these over drilled and undercut holes with epoxy--redrill the pilot hole and then put the tab on with a proper sealant. At this point, you need to remove the tab, drill out all of the holes, undercut fill and put improper sealant.

Captains Cat · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject:

Mike, would you mind sharing the name of the dealer that installed those?

Charlie

DuckDogTitus · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:06 pm Post subject:

unfortunately the people we outsource these jobs to are the reason we develop said "trust" issues. Shocked

C-Nile · Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:50 pm Post subject:

I can't resist putting in my two cents worth. Firstly, with power drivers today, there is no excuse for stripping screws. That is what torque settings are for. Secondly, if the installer realized that they stripped the screws, and left it that way -- that is unforgivable. This is a hot button with me. On my sold CD 16 several years ago, I fell into the water. Using my Garelick ladder to enter the boat, the ladder broke, and it screwed up my knee. If it happened while at sea, it could have had serious consequences. So I took the ladder apart, and discovered that whoever put the stainless steel parts together, they over torqued the stainless steel internal bolt, and it snapped under my weight. In my opinion, the person probably realized their mistake, but chose to leave it that way. Frankly, having EQ Marine rig my boat was a major factor in choosing the Marinaut, albeit they rig other boats like Rosboroughs and C-Dorys. I'm impressed with their quality of work. You won't see them leaving a problem they know they caused. And I know many on this forum that are beneficiaries of that level of quality feels the same as I do.

mgarr682 · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:58 am Post subject:

mgarr682 · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:24 am Post subject:

Discovery · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:43 am Post subject:

I guess it's even more disturbing that they were installed at the factory.

mgarr682 · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:14 am Post subject:

Sunbeam · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:50 am Post subject:

island park · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:59 am Post subject:

I am curious, do any of the dealers oversize drill and then fill with epoxy when outfitting these cored boats? If not, is it just the labor cost that prevents them from doing so. I am not trying to throw any of the fine dealers who support this site under the bus, but I would like to hear their comments on this matter.

Paul

Sunbeam · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:16 am Post subject:

thataway · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:52 am Post subject:

I sent a PM to Mgarr682 last PM. Basically there are a number of factors in the void. It may be how far back the balsa or foam core comes in the boat as it is laid up, and low far down the transom core comes. But some boats have a considerable void back here, where the bottom core material should nearly but onto the transom core material--and not all boats are the same. You have to use a viscosity of filler (epoxy and filler) which flows thru the over size drilled holes--and you can fill up this area--but it may take a fair amount of epoxy. You are venting one side and filling the other--it can back fill form the inside the screw holes between.

I know of a few boat restorers and repairers who do use the epoxy plug method for installing under the water hardware. Not sure about dealers. It is the old issue about time, money, and what a customer is willing to pay.

Sunbeam · Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:10 pm Post subject:

Just as a data point (and because re-reading my earlier post and juxtaposing it with Thataway's post I realized that I didn't write that clearly).

On my boat the transom is balsa cored (I've also heard some are plywood and I think they are now foam). I didn't find any voids in the transom when making my oversized holes - it was all solid, continuous, dry balsa - and well bonded to the skin(s). The air voids I was speaking of are the ones that are hard to avoid when re-filling a blind hole with epoxy. That's the part that may not have come out too clearly above - you know how it all seems so clear when you are writing, but then you re-read and see how it might read to other people.... not so clear!

At the "back" of my trim plane holes I believe I came to a vertical fiberglass layer (i.e. a transom inner skin between the transom core and the hull/bottom core), but it's hard to be sure how substantial it was due to the limited access. When I excavated for my new transom drain sump there was only a very-thin-to-no glass layer between the transom and the thin core under the original bilge sump. There was some of the blue putty dividing the two and at least some resin - maybe some very thin glass. This may be because there was a slightly different technique used where the transom transitions to the original bilge sump (thin core) vs. the fully cored hull areas.

I think I remember reading in Thataway's posts about his 2003 25's transom that there were some voids and materials changes within the transom, so I guess there is some variation.

Sunbeam