Cracks in fiberglass - big problem???

PeteHelsell

I'm very interested in purchasing a 2008 22' Angler, but have a concern about cracks (3-4" long) at the outer corners of the fiberglass bulkhead at the point where the V-berth pan is glassed to the hull (i.e. at the base of the entryway into the V-berth area - This is at the base of the raised cabin sole just aft of the slightly lower area for the porta-potty). The area under this cabin sole is a void that ends at the point of entry into the V-berth (as much as I can tell) and is filled with water (I pulled the plug where the porta-potty sits). The dealer thinks that the cracks are actually caused by delamination of the fiberglass due to the water sitting in the void and suggested that a hole should be drilled in the bulkhead to ensure that water does not collect there. That may be right because the water is not draining out through the cracks, but I'm wondering if the cracks are actually the result of stress caused by a rough-water crossing.
So here are my questions: Has anyone experienced cracks/delamination in this area? How does that void fill with water? Would it be safe to assume that re-glassing the bulkhead to the hull is all that is needed? Any potential problems with the balsa core in the hull or the hull itself?
Any thoughts about the seriousness of this problem would be very much appreciated. The boat is beautiful in all other respects.

Thanks!

potter water · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject:

Not a C-Dory expert, but I have lots of experience with glass boats. If the cracking is delamination as your contact implies, I'd walk not run away from this one. Gel coat cracking is one thing, but delamination down low in the hull like that is definitely something that should get a second or third first hand exam by an experienced glass fix-it person. Pictures would be a big help in order to get any advice from folks on this site who do have a lot of Dory glass experience.

If you can reach a price that is consistent with the risk you are taking and the risk after examination by someone with expertise is manageable, then you could consider going ahead.

Otherwise, anglers do come up fairly often around the country and waiting may be the better plan.

Sunbeam

Edited after I went and looked at my 22 Cruiser...

thataway · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:31 pm Post subject:

Agree that a photo or drawling would help here. I have seen some minute "stress" crack (the kind caused by thick gel coat in corners) in where you are describing.

If there is water under the pan where the porti potty sits, consider it got there in one of several ways--one is from the anchor locker, under the foam which is under the v berth. Another is occasionally the brass stem strip hole was over drilled, and not properly sealed. Finally it might get there if there was a void where the front V berth molding (which includes the pan you describe), and the outer hull is glassed together (such as under the forward dinette seat or platform under the helm).. or thru the "plug" you describe. Does this boat have the fully molded interior, or the Decaguard interior? This may make a difference ref access to the V berth area of lamination, or it may be one full interior molding (?).

Water there is not normal, and needs to be addressed. However, This pan does not take a load, and I don't think that there would be delimitation there from pounding the boat. Water alone does not cause delimitation. Not exactly sure where the dealer wants to drill a hole, but if there is water in the foam--then it needs to be removed--which means removing the foam--or at least accessing the foam.

The hull core should stop just aft of where this platform is laminated. A moisture meter may help in finding any water in the core, but I doubt that there will be any water in the core from what you describe.

If this is a boat the dealer owns then he should address the issue-by opening the area under the porti potty pan floor, pumping it out, looking for any of the areas where water might have gotten into this area and repairing it. Also he should put an inspection plate to examine the foam under the V berth area. If the dealer does not own the boat, then he needs to advise the seller what needs to be done to make the boat right. The boat will most likely not have any warrantee. Thus all needs to be resolved before you buy it.

potter water · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:31 pm Post subject:

Unless water got in and then froze and broke something loose?

thataway · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:38 pm Post subject:

Harry, Freeze is a possibility, but I would also think of it being down where the tab to the hull is also and leak there?.

Hunkydory · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:05 pm Post subject:

Harry,

We have very similar cracks in the same place as you describe. This summer will be our 11th season with the boat & the cracks are unchanged from the day we bought it. Gordon Lamont the original owner who bought the boat new, said they showed up shortly after his purchase & when he contacted the factory they would not do any corrections under hull warrantee saying it was cosmetic. He said, the cracks didn't grow, rather just stayed the same during the almost three years he owned the boat before us, so with the same for our 10 plus years of ownership, I would say the Factory was right & maybe its the same with you. Even though it did turn out to be cosmetic in our case, Gordon & I thought the factory should have corrected such an obvious flaw, even if cosmetic.

Jay

PeteHelsell · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:05 pm Post subject:

Wow, thanks for all of the inputs! Sure wish that I had taken a photo - I'll try to get one when I make the next trip to the dealer. To clarify (I hope)the location of the cracks, if you hung a curtain in the entryway to the V-berth area, the cracks would be visible just under the bottom edge of the curtain. In other words, they are in the outboard edges (bottom corners) of the 2"(?) vertical section (what I called a short "bulkhead) at the aft end of the raised cabin sole.

In the main area of the cabin (aft of this raised cabin sole), it looks like you're standing on the inside of the hull from there all the way to the stern. Do some of the 22' Anglers have a raised sole throughout the boat?

Seems like a good idea to fill the void under the V-berth cabin sole including porta-potti indent with foam and to have an inspection port. I actually suggested to the dealer that it would be a good idea to install that inspection port.

I agree that it seems unlikely that the cracks were caused by delamination due to water immersion - I could imagine that the fiberglass could have cracked in that area if the boat had experienced extreme pounding in rough weather. Or it might be possible that some very heavy crewmember caused it, but again, the cracks are in the vertical part where it is glassed to the hull, not in the horizontal raised sole.

It may be that we should walk away from this boat - the dealer said that they will make the repair when they have a buyer. I'm just trying to see if I can figure out the cause of the water in the void and the reason for the cracks (i.e. ascertain the risk) before I negotiate a price. Thanks for all of the good advice!

thataway · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:46 pm Post subject:

Correct that you are standing on the bottom of the hull. You would have to have really driven the boat hard to cause any damage in this area you describe. The 25 I rebuilt had been driven hard, and it didn't have anything like these cracks, but did have to have some tabbing redone along the sides of the V Berth and outboard along the bottom of this molding.

irregardless, the water does not belong there. The factory usually put foam under the V berth at build time--not under the floor as I remember.

Sunbeam · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:49 pm Post subject:

PeteHelsell · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject:

Sunbeam:

Yes, the cracks are in the outer lower corners of the "short vertical section that runs athwartships about 2" tall" in the entry to the V-berth, not in the shiny fore and aft sections on either side of the raised sole in the V-berth.

Sorry, but I don't have a scanner. I'll try to get a photo next time I see the boat. I'm guessing other owners would be very interested in seeing the cracks that I'm describing.

Thataway:

Yes, I saw the foam under the V-berth itself (I pulled up the plug there, too), but none under the raised sole. Not sure if all 22's were built this way.

Thanks to you both!

Sunbeam · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:44 pm Post subject:

PeteHelsell · Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:22 am Post subject:

Sunbeam:

Yes, that is exactly the location of the cracks - your photo is very helpful - thank you!

The cracks we saw are not "hairline" cracks, but pretty deep cracks through a couple of layers of roving. In fact, I'm a little surprised that there is still water filling the void under the raised cabin sole / porta-potti floor - the cracks look deep enough that water could drain out through them, but obviously must not be all the way through all of the laminations.

Good advice to have it checked out - thanks. By the way, thought I'd mention that I called Triton Marine about this problem, but was told they couldn't answer questions about problems related to construction of boats built before 2010 (that's when they started building C-Dory's as I understand it).

I'd be very interested to know (now that the location / crack description is specified) if anyone else has seen this problem on their boats.

Jay ("Hunkydory"), does this still match the description of the "cosmetic" cracks that you have?

Thataway: Regarding the water leak, you mentioned earlier that there is a possibility that "the brass stem strip hole was over drilled, and not properly sealed." Is this stem strip through-bolted or just screwed onto the stem?
You also asked: "Does this boat have the fully molded interior, or the Decaguard interior?" I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it's the latter.

Thanks to all for your help!

Hunkydory · Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:01 am Post subject:

Pete,

Sorry about the wrong name in my previous post. It was meant for you. Yes the cracks are in the same area & similar description as the Hunkydory. I will try to get photos of them tomorrow & post for you. If the photos show they are really similar to yours, then hopefully for you too, it is just cosmetic.

Jay

Discovery · Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am Post subject:

See the area where the blue tape is. Not the subject of the pic, which was the tackle hatches.

The 22 Angler 2006 that I bought last summer had cracks in this same area. I just fixed them and will not worry about it. They appeared to me to be gelcoat cracking, not structural.