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bmcminn



Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 65
City/Region: Bellingham
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1992
C-Dory Model: 19 Angler
Vessel Name: Polū
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:33 am    Post subject: What can I plug into this??? Reply with quote

I have an Interstate 24M-XHD cranking battery and an Interstate SRM-24 ?house battery? with a BlueSea battery link 10A charger (12V DC).

I know very little about electrical systems, apologies if this is a ridiculous question.

Can I get an inverter set up and run any of these things?

1. a cheap electric hot plate for boiling water
2. a small heater, either a 500 watt one like they have on Amazon or the fancier Caframo True North heater
3. an induction hot plate

Thanks, I just want to make camping a little bit comfortable without resorting to fire.
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DavidM



Joined: 24 Dec 2017
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City/Region: Punta Gorda
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C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some numbers:

Your house battery has about 70 amp hours of capacity but you only want to draw it down to 50% for best life so it has 35 usable AHs.

An inverter converts DC 12 V to 120V AC to drive each of those appliances.

A hot plate probably draws about 1,000 watts so that takes almost 100 amps out of your house battery to run it. That means you can run it for 35/100 = .35 hours from your battery. If it draws less then ratio the numbers down.

The small heater will use 50 amps so you can run it for 35/50 hours or .7 hours.

Induction stoves are more efficient but also about 500 watts.

So my advice is to get a one burner propane Coleman stove. Or a propane radiant heater for heat.

David
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bmcminn



Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 65
City/Region: Bellingham
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1992
C-Dory Model: 19 Angler
Vessel Name: Polū
Photos: bmcminn
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks David. I forgot to say that my plan had been to operate this stuff while the motor was running. Heater especially. I want it for when I'm fishing or taking a quick break. Also to reduce window condensation...
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bmcminn



Joined: 20 Jul 2019
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City/Region: Bellingham
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1992
C-Dory Model: 19 Angler
Vessel Name: Polū
Photos: bmcminn
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the hot plate would also be for making a quick French press when anchored but with motor running...
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
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C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even that sounds borderline, we would need to know how many amps at that rpm your motor makes, which may be minimal at low rpms.
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bmcminn



Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 65
City/Region: Bellingham
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1992
C-Dory Model: 19 Angler
Vessel Name: Polū
Photos: bmcminn
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes sense. I was wondering what the limiting factor was. RPMs...

So when I read on here about people using induction, what type of battery setup do they have?

I do have a teeny tiny defroster that plugs into the 12V that does ok at keeping the window clear and we used the propane stove in our vanagon for a decade without any problems.

Thanks again for all the info, what a great community.
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DavidM



Joined: 24 Dec 2017
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C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmcminn wrote:
Thanks David. I forgot to say that my plan had been to operate this stuff while the motor was running. Heater especially. I want it for when I'm fishing or taking a quick break. Also to reduce window condensation...


Ahhh, ok. But most O/B alternators don't put out much current, probably no more than 10A at slow speeds. So subtract 10A from each of the amperage load calculations above. It doesn't improve the answer much though.

David
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you have a Suzuki 70 hp. That will put out 27 amps max. The engine and boat systems, will take at least 10 amps--leaving 17 amps to charge the batteries, at max RPM/output for that alternator. Running an alternator at full power can cause overheating, and damage. I believe this is a flywheel "alternator".

What am I using? 200 amps/hrs. of Li Fe PO4 batteries--a 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter/80 amp charger, for the 110 V charging, and a 30 amp sterling battery to battery charger. This gives me 180 amps hrs/ usable battery power. I also have a Honda EU 2200 Generator to back this up. Running an inverter--650 watts is a good power draw on that, or about 65 amps per hour. The microwave is 1200 Watts draw, even though a "700 watt" microwave. Hot plate etc would all be at least 50 amps, heater more.

My alternator puts out 44 amps, but I limit it to 30 amps for any battery charging. To avoid stress on the alternator. I can make enough power during a 5 hour run to use the induction burner, microwave, and keep freezer and refer running.

I personally am very cautious with any propane in a cabin of a boat. A caravan, drains to the ground, and spreads out. In a boat, it goes to the bilge...not overboard, Best in the cockpit or over the side, like one of the grills. I see a few stoves identical to my friend's which had a seal fail, and dumped the cartridge of propane in the kitchen of his house: Boom, 3* burns, hospital for months, dialysis, coma etc. Made a recovery fortunately.

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pcg



Joined: 31 Aug 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
... but I limit it to 30 amps for any battery charging...
Bob, can you explain the process by which you do this please?

And...
thataway wrote:
I believe you have a Suzuki 70 hp. That will put out 27 amps max. The engine and boat systems, will take at least 10 amps--leaving 17 amps to charge the batteries, at max RPM/output for that alternator. Running an alternator at full power can cause overheating, and damage. I believe this is a flywheel "alternator"

Can you elaborate please? Do you mean that, in this case, if you attach a load that wants to draw more than 17A for a sustained time, you can overheat the alternator? If this is the case, what happens when the alternator is trying to charge a low battery that results in a demand for more than 17A? What limits the current other than the ability of the alternator to supply it?

Thank you!

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starcrafttom



Joined: 07 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of it like a pool of water. your pool/battery holds 100 AH of water. Your heater is drawing out 50 AH every hour. so the pool is going to be half full in half an hour. Your motor is pouring in to the pool only 10 AH of water. So you have slowed the draining of your pool/ battery to 40 gallons per hour. Point of the story is that your motor can not keep up with the amount of water you are drawing out . your pool is going to draw down. Once that pool is half empty its harder to fill and takes motor time. Drawing down to half is going to erode the banks of the pool / battery and cause it harm in the long run.

i do not get what people do not like about gas stoves and heaters. We run a diesel heater and a alcohol stove. simple easy and can be refueled. The heater will run for 4 days and the stove can cook twice a day for a week? or more. Just seems that the whole electric shuffle is more trouble then its worth and you are taking a change or draining your battery and leaving your self stuck. ( yes we have done that ). Another good reason for a kicker with a alt. and a pull l start.

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pcg wrote:
thataway wrote:
... but I limit it to 30 amps for any battery charging...
Bob, can you explain the process by which you do this please?

And...
thataway wrote:
I believe you have a Suzuki 70 hp. That will put out 27 amps max. The engine and boat systems, will take at least 10 amps--leaving 17 amps to charge the batteries, at max RPM/output for that alternator. Running an alternator at full power can cause overheating, and damage. I believe this is a flywheel "alternator"

Can you elaborate please? Do you mean that, in this case, if you attach a load that wants to draw more than 17A for a sustained time, you can overheat the alternator? If this is the case, what happens when the alternator is trying to charge a low battery that results in a demand for more than 17A? What limits the current other than the ability of the alternator to supply it?

Thank you!


The Sterling Battery to battery charger has verious perimeters which can be set, The amount of charging is one of those. In my case, the 150 Honda Alternaator can put out 44 amps, max (by specs, I have not measured), I have a Battery to battery charger which basically acts like a voltage and current regulator. I have the ability to set the profile for one of a number of battery types, or set my own specific profile (the Bulk, Absorption, and float stages, with voltage, current and time limits)


The over heating of an alternator is probably more of a theoretical issue, in this specific case. The point being that there is really very little "spare current' available. We don't know exactly how much his motor and systems use power--the 10 amps is a fairly good guess. If he is running a depth sounder, radar, chart plotter, fan to defrost, his current requirements may be more than 10 amps. I don't know what electronics his motor processor requires.

I I have seen a number of cruisers who try and get the max out of the 30 or 40 amp small case alternators which come with the diesels, burn up the alternators when they run the alternator at full tilt for long periods of time. They may or may not have a sophisticated regulation (often after market) system. The outboards we use, don't really have a sophisticated regulator. We occasionally se the smaller outboards burn up parts of the charging system because of "over use". Running as the OP suggested; an inverter, with heavy loads with group 24 battery is a great set up to damage the charging system.

Quote:
i do not get what people do not like about gas stoves and heaters. We run a diesel heater and a alcohol stove. simple easy and can be refueled. The heater will run for 4 days and the stove can cook twice a day for a week? or more. Just seems that the whole electric shuffle is more trouble then its worth and you are taking a change or draining your battery and leaving your self stuck. ( yes we have done that ). Another good reason for a kicker with a alt. and a pull l start.


My argument against explosive gas stoves, is that often the external tank storage area is not properly drained overboard. Few of the C Dorys have a proper shut off valve at the tank and shut those off after each and every use. The I have personally seen 3 propane boat explosions and fires. I have either treated or known of friends who have had serious injuries after being burned by a LP gas explosion involving boat stoves.

I have used LP stoves safely on cruising boats, which had a number safety factors, and sailed over 100,000 miles with these systems over a number of years. But there were several "sniffers"; one under the stove, one in the lowest part of the bilge. The LP tank was in a locker on deck, sealed from the cabin, and properly vented overboard. Same with storage of back up LP tanks.

I have used diesel heaters for many years. They are just not necessary in Florida.
If I lived or at this point in my life was boating in the PNW, I would have diesel heat. We spent 4 seasons (April thru Oct) on the Inland Passage and AK with a 46' boat and 45,000 BTU hydronic diesel fired heater. Worked great!

As for alcohol stoves--the older ones were dangerous--I have seen several fires related to spreading raw alcohol. The pot burner types are fine, reasonably safe. But the Admiral does not like cooking on them for several reasons: regulation, odor, and inconvenience. I have had several pressure Kerosine stoves, they require alcohol pre heat, a real pain. I have had 4 Wallas stoves and they have worked well for me. The current boat only had a small cartridge LP gas stove, which sat on top of the counter. Because of our risk adversity to propane, we gave that away. We do have a single burner propane stove, with two cartridges in PVC pipe which are vented overboard as a back up to the electrical induction burner (and had that same backup for the Wallas). The propane would be only used in the cockpit with adequate ventilation.

The Li batteries are an experiment for us--certainly not for everyone. I believe I have the background and knowledge to put togather a safe and efficient arrangement. We have been using this for 2 years now, and it is cool (good when you boat in a hot area). We can easily sustain both a chest freezer (65 quart size) and a chest refrigerator (45 quart size) so we can carry food for a month. So far normal outboard running has kept the batteries charged. We have a back up of a 2200 Honda generator. Before I designed my system, I consulted with both boaters and RV folks who had been using the LI batteries beginnging about 2005. The price has come down, and the safety remarkably improved since then.

I should point out, that my boat has a group 24 starting battery, two group 27 "house batteries". These take care of normal demands. The 200 amp hours of LI Fe PO4 batteries are only for the freezer, refer, inverter (microwave and induction burner).

I agree with the back up kicker. In our case we either use a 3.5 hp separate fuel supply, pull start, or the electric Torqeedo outboard. As our back ups. I have used the low hp kickers for over 60 years, and the type of boating we do, it works very well. If I was going offshore, I would have a 8 to 9 hp "big foot" outboard, with separate battery and fuel system.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:37 pm    Post subject: Monitoring Reply with quote

Quote:
you are taking a change or draining your battery and leaving your self stuck. ( yes we have done that ).


Any boat which has marginal--that is where there is enough current draw, that there is a risk of being stranded due to a dead battery, should have a monitoring system. Just voltage of house and start battery is minimal ( the "gauge" on the dash is not accurate enough).

Best is to monitor amps in, amps out, total amps used, and state of charge of the battery as well as voltage. We have two separate monitoring systems:
1. is the two group 27 house batteries (usable amp hours about 110)

2. is the Li battery bank, (usable amp hours 180).

We also monitor the temperature of charging batteries via the Sterling or Victron charger. (The Victron is part of the 2000 watt Pure Sine Wave inverter 80 amp charger). The Victron inverter monitor also acts as a switch between shore power and inverter power. If the voltage of the shore power drops, the inverter kicks in to bring it up to 110 V AC, synchronizing with the mains power. I have the limit set at 15 amps 110V AC supplemental power. Often we see marinas with low voltage at the end of the docks.
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Marco Flamingo



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:

My argument against explosive gas stoves, is that often the external tank storage area is not properly drained overboard. Few of the C Dorys have a proper shut off valve at the tank and shut those off after each and every use.


I'm in the process of replacing a Magic Chef propane stove with an induction cooktop. The surveyor noted that there was no pressure gauge on the old propane system (an ABYC requirement). The insurance company made that part of the insurance requirement. The gauge is simply used as a "leak down" test to find out if the supply hose is okay once the solenoid is switched. It is placed between the solenoid and the stove. The purpose is to determine the integrity of the hose, not the amount in the tank.

My hose is okay, but when I pulled the tank out to install the gauge I found something that the surveyor didn't find. A previous entrance point for the gas hose. Even though the tank was "outside," there was a large hole leading directly to the bilge should the tank leak.

The surveyor also noted that there is no thermo-couple on the vintage 1981 Magic Chef (not an ABYC requirement?). My experience with induction makes me believe that it is so superior to gas that it is simply not worth updating an old stove. That makes pulling out the gas stove a simple choice. I've used the Magic Chef a few times and forgot what a nuisance the condensation is when it is below 40 outside.

Most people can't believe how much faster, cleaner, and simpler induction is. Spending $150 on a two burner induction cook top and an additional $250 on a pure sine wave inverter is a bargain compared to a new propane stove (+$1K). Besides the safety, no more carrying a propane tank up and down the dock (and then sometimes hitch-hiking to get it filled).

Hopefully I can get something on Craigslist for the old Magic Chef stove and the SS BBQ thingy that hangs off the back railing. Maybe I can even get a few bucks for the propane tank and regulator. That would make the switch to induction even better.

Tom's "pool of water" analogy is a good one. But keep in mind that an induction burner plate doesn't draw much (I've never used mine above #4 when it goes to #Cool and it is only used for a few minutes because it is so much faster than gas and an electric resistance burner. I generally start my dinner when entering the anchorage area so that the alternator is "keeping the pool full." For breakfast, the stove use is usually just a pot of coffee. Four minutes of inverter time that doesn't even drop my house battery. If I was planning an omelet, pancakes, and bacon, I'd probably start the engine first.

Mark
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