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New guy with electrical config question?
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Stearmandriver2



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 25
City/Region: Port Orchard
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Notayot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:49 am    Post subject: New guy with electrical config question? Reply with quote

Hello all,

I recently closed the deal and brought home a very nice 2006 22 Cruiser... I'm the new caretaker of Notayot.

I'm just trying to understand my electrical system a little better. I have two batteries, and 3 selector switches: Start, House, and Emerg Parallel.



The House and Start switches seem self explanatory, but I'm curious about the Emerg Paralell and primarily, what the proper config is during normal ops. I'm pretty sure the seller said to run with all 3 switches on normally, but I question the word "emerg" on that switch; I'm used to only using things named that way in abnormal operations. I've also read cautions in the C Dory manual about tying the house and starting systems together, which it seems obvious to me that that's what this switch does (but I've certainly been wrong before).

I ran the boat for about an hour that way the other day (all three switches on) and everything seemed (still seems) fine, but I'm having second thoughts now. Can anyone with a similar 2 battery system chime in here?

Motors are a 2006 Honda 90 for a main, with a Tohatsu 9.9 aux.

Thanks!

Joe
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe, you are right, the emergency parallel is usually keep the house bank separate from the start to keep it up to start the motor and on if your start battery is low and needs help from the house bank. But you need a way to charge your house so the parallel has to be on when motoring. BUT you have a "voltage sensing relay" in your system, if it is similar to a ACR that joins your two banks together when charging automatically then you only use the parallel switch for emergencies. I'm sure another C-brat will know exactly what that relay is.
Hope that helps.

_________________
Micah Curtis and Dana, RN
2003 C-dory 25 Sierra, 200, 9.9 and 2.5 Suzukis
2012 R25 SC Sequoia (2015-2018)
1978 Folkes 38 SV Audacious (2006-2015)
Micah, KJ6GUF, Dana, KJ6GXG
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, he does have a voltage sensitive relay, so that the two batteries are combined when the voltage is over 13.6 volts (charging) and disconnected when the voltage drops to 12.7 volts. Thus run the electronics off the "house" battery, and then it is not charged until the start battery is up to 13.7 volts. Then they are "combined".

Use the combined manual (emergency): for just that, when the start battery is low, and you need to combine them to start the engine...

Congratulations on your boat!

_________________
Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
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Home port: Pensacola FL
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Stearmandriver2



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 25
City/Region: Port Orchard
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Notayot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent, thank you both for the answers. I was also wondering what that relay controlled; now it all makes sense!

Joe
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san juanderer



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 234
City/Region: Stanwood
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:31 pm    Post subject: what switches to have " ON " Reply with quote

When your running ( normal operation ) have the Start Bat switch ON, and have the House Bat switch ON, leave Emerg. switch OFF. Emerg. switch is only used if you come to your boat and for some reason you find a dead start battery. When your storing the boat, you would turn both of those switches to OFF.

Now here is a little problem, that BEP VSR may or may/not have the little red wire loop. The VSR is sensing the Start Bat, even when switches are in the OFF position. It is a very little draw. Newer models of that cluster have the little red wire loop, so it can be cut and a additional dash switch ( + ) / or it can be hooked to Ign. On (+) source. I have always wired to Ign. On (+) source. That way the VSR is working only when your main engine is running.

If you have a storage battery charger hooked to both batteries then no problem, don't just have a charger on the house battery.

Sorry if this is a little mind twisting.
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Stearmandriver2



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 25
City/Region: Port Orchard
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Notayot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: what switches to have " ON " Reply with quote

san juanderer wrote:
When your running ( normal operation ) have the Start Bat switch ON, and have the House Bat switch ON, leave Emerg. switch OFF. Emerg. switch is only used if you come to your boat and for some reason you find a dead start battery. When your storing the boat, you would turn both of those switches to OFF.

Now here is a little problem, that BEP VSR may or may/not have the little red wire loop. The VSR is sensing the Start Bat, even when switches are in the OFF position. It is a very little draw. Newer models of that cluster have the little red wire loop, so it can be cut and a additional dash switch ( + ) / or it can be hooked to Ign. On (+) source. I have always wired to Ign. On (+) source. That way the VSR is working only when your main engine is running.

If you have a storage battery charger hooked to both batteries then no problem, don't just have a charger on the house battery.

Sorry if this is a little mind twisting.


That is actually very helpful, thanks. I'm on the road now but I'll look for the red wire loop when I get home.

I'm glad you mentioned a battery charger because I forgot to ask. To clarify: if I hook a portable battery charger to the START battery, and turn on both start and house batteries, that will effectively charge both batteries (the relay will close and allow the house battery to charge once the start battery reaches 13.7v). Is that right? And actually, does either battery switch need to be turned on for this charging, or will that relay connect the house battery to the start battery (and charger) even with the switches off?

Thanks, sorry for the newb questions, I just couldn't find any documentation on this. I could just go out to the boat with a meter and answer most of this myself I guess... but I won't be home for three days and I'll bet you guys can answer faster. Laughing
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some portable chargers don't have a good 3 stage charge profile and long term float compared to the best of the built in marine chargers like the Pro Mariners. Long term with a portable may cook off more water if you have flooded batteries and may be even worse on gels and AGMs. The best maintainers might work out better in portable chargers.
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san juanderer



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 234
City/Region: Stanwood
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1990
C-Dory Model: 22 Angler
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:01 pm    Post subject: VSR little red wire Reply with quote

Comes out the back of the VSR, you will have to dismount the cluster to see behind it ( literally a 2" loop of like 20 guage wire ).

House switch would have to be ON for charger current to reach house Bat.

Leaving the Bat switches ON, negates the whole purpose of isolating the batteries OFF during periods of storage.

Charger or chargers should be hooked directly to Battery posts. Some boats with very large House batteries may have 80 to 100 amp charger on that side, and a much smaller charger on the Start battery. So those switches would be OFF.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem with questions, that is the way all of us learn.

My impression is that the ACR (Voltage sensitive Relay is the same thing) is bi directional--that is if you are charing the house or the start battery it will combine when he voltage reaches about 13.7.
You can read a bit more on the Blue Seas Web site.

Quote:
I'm glad you mentioned a battery charger because I forgot to ask. To clarify: if I hook a portable battery charger to the START battery, and turn on both start and house batteries, that will effectively charge both batteries


Battery chargers:
Generally we discourage automotive type of portable battery chargers. They are not marine grade, and subject to rust, corrosion and failure. They are not as "safe" for the battery or the boat's electrical system. They are not always the "smartest" of chargers. There are several stages of battery charging: bulk absorption and float. You want a "smart charger". This will not over charge or damage the battery. Overcharging can damage batteries, as much as over discharging them. Basically never discharge more than 50% for longevity--and that means a "Stead State Resting voltage" of 12.2 volts. Never keep a battery on a charger which boils off the electrolytes.

I have several little 6 amp potted portable battery chargers; if I have a low battery, for example my fishing boat is an 18' catamaran, and no fixed battery charger. (Guest 2606A). My house bank charger is a NOCO Genius 30 amp 3 bank charger. There are a number of good marine battery chargers. You don't have to have a complete 110 V AC system, just a breaker or fuse on the input "hot" leg and a simple bass boat type of charger inlet, up under the gunnel, which will accept a heavy duty 15 amp extension cord. (MARINCO–15A Battery Charger Inlet)

Just running your outboard is not the best way of charging your battery. There should be a "top off" that last 15 to 20% of the battery capacity done with a shore side charger on a regular basis, for best battery life.

There are a number of chargers on the market. I tend to stay with Guest, ProMariner (Pro Series are more expensive, but worth it), NOCO has a 10 amp single battery charger for about $120, "smart"--samples the battery voltage and does a "test" before applying charge. Although I had not had any NOCO product before this boat, I have been impressed with their technology.
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Stearmandriver2



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 25
City/Region: Port Orchard
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Notayot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha. So long term, I'll probably want an installed battery charger. Gotcha.

Short term, for topping off before launching the boat or after using the house battery to power electronics etc while on boat in driveway, I guess a portable charger like this would be what's needed?

Thanks again...

https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS5-Fully-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B07W8KJH44/ref=asc_df_B07W8KJH44/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385121954544&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10303131102358834340&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002009&hvtargid=aud-799711277694:pla-1041741797992&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=76842158285&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385121954544&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10303131102358834340&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002009&hvtargid=aud-799711277694:pla-1041741797992
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After an earlier discussion a while ago I double checked my Blue Seas ACR, it does maintain and charge my start from the house and charge the house from the start while of course isolating them when not being charged.

I started out last year with what I thought was a decent bass boat plug in charger as I only have a 220 AH house bank but the float stage boiled off water way too fast, I sold it and put in a Pro Mariner that senses a long term float and turns off till the voltage drops slightly, no more water boiled off. It is definitely worth twice the cost. I used to like my old Xantrex but now I really like the easy set up and charge style of the Pro Mariner.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20778
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Short term, for topping off before launching the boat or after using the house battery to power electronics etc while on boat in driveway, I guess a portable charger like this would be what's needed?


It would work--but why not go with a few more dollars, and get one which is "built in". I have not checked out the circuits on that specific charger. I would not leave any clamp on charger on the battery for long term periods.
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Stearmandriver2



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 25
City/Region: Port Orchard
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Notayot
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Quote:
Short term, for topping off before launching the boat or after using the house battery to power electronics etc while on boat in driveway, I guess a portable charger like this would be what's needed?


It would work--but why not go with a few more dollars, and get one which is "built in". I have not checked out the circuits on that specific charger. I would not leave any clamp on charger on the battery for long term periods.


Seems like solid advice. I've even got some Cabelas gift cards to burn, and they've got a ProMariner Gen3 Prosport 15 for $130. Think I'll go that route. Thanks again!
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Stearmandriver2



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 25
City/Region: Port Orchard
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Notayot
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Follow up question: no downside to getting a triple output charger for use with two batteries, right? I could see maybe wanting to add a second house battery and it would be good to have an extra charging channel available if I do...
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Micahbigsur@msn.com



Joined: 27 May 2019
Posts: 484
City/Region: Big Sur
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sierra
Photos: Sierra
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have 2 group 31s for the house bank they are as is normal wired together in parallel so the 40 amp charger sees them as one battery your start battery will also be charged at the same time as your house through your VSR so you just need a big enough charger for what ever your future house bank will be, very simple. No extra channels.
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