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Roy & Dixie



Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 151
City/Region: Silver Springs
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C Way
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:06 am    Post subject: Engine mount height Reply with quote

I read somewhere that the cavitation plate on the engine should be in line with the bottom of the boat. A search on this forum has a post re: twin 90hp Hondas and that advice is offered there.

I have a 22 CD with a single 80hp Yahama to which I have just installed a PermaTrim. When I lay a long straight edge along the bottom of the boat, with the engine tilted so PermaTrim is parallel with the boat's bottom, the PermaTrim is at least 1" below the bottom of the boat. This seems to be the original installation position.

With this boat, engine, PermaTrim combination, would I expect to experience improved performance and/or economy if I reinstalled the engine 1" higher?

If so, I read somewhere that this can be done while boat is on the trailer. The engine foot would be blocked and the tilt of the trailer cranked to remove the load of the engine off the transome. Then after loosening the 2 lower mounting bolts and removing the 2 upper bolts, the trailer tilt would be adjusted to lower the stern 1" so the 2 upper mounting bolts could be reinstalled in the next lower engine mount holes. I think it was Alex at PermaTrim that described this method.

Any input on this question and adjustment method would be appreciated.

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Sea Wolf



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
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City/Region: Redding
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy-

1. The raising of the engine 1" should make the boat faster and more efficient (better MPG, slightly) from less drag.

2. The method will work, or at least should work, if done with reasonable care and safety in mind.

3. If you find out that, at the new height, the engine ventilates in chop too much, you can always move it back to the original holes.

Will you have to drill any new ones? If so, be sure to A., plug the old ones properly and, B., on the new ones, clear out the sandwiched material properly and fill in with epoxy before re-drilling the new ones, now properly sealed to prevent water intrusion into the core.

If it were me, I'd try to find out who mounted the engine that low in the first place, and what intent they had in mind before I started all the above procedures. Maybe they know something that could save one the trouble of finding out the hard way ? Or maybe they were just lazy?

I'd also consider putting 1" spacer between the top of the transom and the motor mount to fill in the space that will be created when raising the engine. It's unnecessary, but I'd just feel more comfortable with the space filled in with something suitable.

Good Luck!

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want the Permatrim to run just on the surface of the water at planing speed. There are several factors--generally the ruler from the bottom of the boat is a good rule, but there can be variations... It may be that 1" above the transom may be better. Go up one inch and then check it running--under normal trim, with normal load in the boat.

The tilt the trailer may work, but I would feel safer with an engine hoist--they can be rented, a friend may have an "A" frame, or a good solid tree limb (has to be carefully checked) can also do the job. You do want the engine to be stable, and you want to be able to jack the tongue up enough--use more blocks and a set of hydraulic jacks if necessary to increase the range of pushing the tongue up...if you choose this method.

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Thataway
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hardee



Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr Bob said this:
Quote:
"The tilt the trailer may work, but I would feel safer with an engine hoist--they can be rented, a friend may have an "A" frame, or a good solid tree limb (has to be carefully checked) can also do the job. You do want the engine to be stable, and you want to be able to jack the tongue up enough--use more blocks and a set of hydraulic jacks if necessary to increase the range of pushing the tongue up...if you choose this method."


That would work OR you could start with the trailer set with the transom at the elevation you want the engines to finish at by raising the trailer by jacking it up to where you want it, then stabilize the engine at that level and lower the boat and trailer, with the engines stabilized, and then do the remount.

Just my thoughts, pick your own way.

Harvey
SleepyCMoon

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Roy & Dixie



Joined: 29 Jan 2013
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City/Region: Silver Springs
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C Way
Photos: C-Way
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will you have to drill any new ones? If so, be sure to A., plug the old ones properly and, B., on the new ones, clear out the sandwiched material properly and fill in with epoxy before re-drilling the new ones, now properly sealed to prevent water intrusion into the core.

I will not need to drill any new holes. The bolts would simply be run through the next level of holes in the engine. The lower bolts, when loosened, will slide within the engine mount. They would prevent the engine from tilting in any direction.

I'm not sure why it was set up as it is, but it was done in Crystal River, FL where it was purchased new.

Thanks for the other suggestions.
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BrentB



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a good read

http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=137.0

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Sunbeam



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy,

Since I also have an F80, I'm going to go take a look to compare. My motor is tilted up right now (and I've also got the trailer tilted up so I can't lower the motor all the way at the moment), but I'll measure the distance from the underside of the bracket to the top of the transom. In other words, this is the gap that would disappear if the motor were just set on the transom and allowed to rest on the top of the transom.

Okay, back. So... there is a bit of a rounded recess on the underside of the motor yoke. From the top of the black transom cap, to the "highest" point on the rounded recess is around 1-3/4". But I wasn't able to get a very precise measurement there, so to supplement: from the top of the black transom cap to the center of the top fastener holding the motor on, is 2". That fastener is in the second hole down of four possible holes. I wonder how that compares to yours?

I also installed a Permatrim but I haven't had my boat in the water since I put it on, so I have no data that way.

Sunbeam
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Roy & Dixie



Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 151
City/Region: Silver Springs
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C Way
Photos: C-Way
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, back. So... there is a bit of a rounded recess on the underside of the motor yoke. From the top of the black transom cap, to the "highest" point on the rounded recess is around 1-3/4". But I wasn't able to get a very precise measurement there, so to supplement: from the top of the black transom cap to the center of the top fastener holding the motor on, is 2". That fastener is in the second hole down of four possible holes. I wonder how that compares to yours?

I just went out and measured my F80. The engine is 3/4in above the transom and there is no filler in the space. The top pair of bolts are through the 2nd down holes in the engine and the lower pair of bolts would allow the engine to slide up 1 1/2in where they are through the transom. Thus I can raise the engine 1in by useing the 3rd pair of holes down on the engine mount. Two inch raise would require new holes for the lower bolts. I do not feel any more than 1in will be necessary. That would put the top of the PermaTrim at the same level of the bottom of the hull.

Central Fla weather was down to 34F this morning with a climb into the mid 60s, but the wind and chill factor will delay a sea trial for another day or so. I'll post my readings soon.

I replaced the surge brakes master cylinder, flushed the old discolored fluid totally out, and bled the lines. The callipers, pads and discs were all good. By jacking the wheels off the ground and spinning each one, I have "bench tested" the system. I plan to take a test drive today
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Sunbeam



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sunbeam wrote:
From the top of the black transom cap, to the "highest" point on the rounded recess is around 1-3/4".


Roy & Dixie wrote:
I just went out and measured my F80. The engine is 3/4in above the transom and there is no filler in the space.... I do not feel any more than 1in will be necessary. That would put the top of the PermaTrim at the same level of the bottom of the hull.


Hi Roy,

There is no filler in the space above the transom on mine either. From what I have seen on other boats, I think it may be customary to just leave "open air" there and not have the bracket resting on anything.

So, I don't know for sure mine is right, but it seems like it's around 1" higher than yours right now, and from what you are saying, you're going to move yours up 1" and expect that to be good. So our two engines would then be about the same height. Perhaps that means mine is about right already (I wouldn't mind that at all as I have plenty of other "boat irons" in the fire!).

Sounds like your trailer is coming along great Thumbs Up

Sunbeam
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Roy & Dixie



Joined: 29 Jan 2013
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City/Region: Silver Springs
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 1999
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C Way
Photos: C-Way
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like your trailer is coming along great

Just test drove to test trailer brakes. For 8mi on the country road, on which I live with almost no traffic, I repeadly got up to @ 45 mph, then decelerated more and more briskly, including 1 almost panic stop. I could feel the Jeep brakes engage moments before the trailer surged fwd and the deceleration increase noticeably. As someone else stated, it stops better than without the trailer attached with the same pedal pressure. The discs were too hot to touch and are beginning to shine like you would expect.

All else the same re transom and F80, it sounds like your engine is already at height I am shooting for.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do also a run with out the heavy stops and check the disc temps with an IR thermometer. We check both the discs and bearings every two hours when traveling. It just takes a second--and you don't even get your fingers dirty! Can also save a bearing. (We think that we lost a set of bearings due to dragging disc breaks, so that the regular checks can avoid that down the line.) This gives you a baseline temp.
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Sunbeam



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if different discs or setups run differently, but here are a couple of data points from my set-up:

When I started all this I was away from home and also not experienced in trailer work, save for re-packing bearings many years ago. So I had a pro shop install Kodiak disc brakes on all four wheels, new Timken bearings, new brake hoses, and a new actuator. I put on four new tires (plus a few other non-running gear-related items).

When I pointed my nose north, I found out that things were not quite all right. Two symptoms: Terrible gas mileage and my hubs were running quite hot. I can't remember exactly, but I think they were around 175ºF. At that point in time I wasn't *sure* if that was too hot (people said discs would run "hotter" and also in the past I never had an IR thermometer), but I was worried about them so I limped into a trailer place enroute. We corrected quite a few problems that could have created heat and/or kept the brakes from releasing (sharp 90º bend in brake hose, discs dragging on hubs, castle nuts much too tight and don't even get me started on how they had the cotter pins bent back). I got back on the road and of course watched it all like a hawk. The hubs were cooler sometimes but it was inconsistent. At one point they started running up in the high 100's again and - knowing what I by-then knew - I wasn't going to assume any of the rest of it was done right either. Hence I limped into the next place....

There we found one of the sets of shoes completely worn out, crookedly (seems perhaps it was installed cockeyed and got stuck that way) from being stuck on (that wheel ran hotter), and that also all four brakes were still not releasing properly. Finally, after replacing one set of shoes, the main brake hose (seems the 90º bend may have caused a break to turn into a "flap" inside it), and the actuator (again!), I had a smoothly running system. That left precious little from the first "pro" job, but at least I could click off the miles with mental peace! I also went from 9mpg up to 12.5, which was around what I expected in the first place. Ahhhhh....

Okay, that was a long lead-up Crook , but my original point was that now all four hubs run "cool" and within ten degrees of each other. Finally! They run between 70º and around 105ºF, depending on ambient temp (and this was all at ambient temps of under 80ºF). I measure them with an IR thermometer I picked up at Radio Shack. Like you said, the van stops better towing the boat than it does without it!

Sunbeam Hot
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Roy & Dixie



Joined: 29 Jan 2013
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Vessel Name: C Way
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I was deliberately trying to heat my disc by repeately accelerating and then quickly decelerating so as to check that calipers would close against the disc and then release, and that the new master cylinder was functioning properly. I then checked that there was no drag of the pads on the disc by spinning the raised wheels. Sticking calipers are a real problem on any vehicle that is not driven regularly, as anyone in the motorhome community can attest to. A previous owner stated today that he did not think the 2006 trailer was ever used much. Today I drove 25mi each way to the St Johns River, Astor, FL so as to test CD underway. Only needed to apply brakes, lightly, 5-6 times each way, but all was good!

Original intent of this thread was questions concerning engine height. I wanted to look closely at new PermTrim underway before changing engine height by 1" up. It definently needs to be raised at least 1". More might be better, but that would require raising the lower bolts and I don't want to get into that before a trial with only a 1" raise. Tomorrow I hope to get the engine up 1".
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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy & Dixie wrote:
Original intent of this thread was questions concerning engine height.


I probably could have trimmed my saga a bit Embarassed Maybe it will end up helping someone else in future though.

Roy & Dixie wrote:
It definently needs to be raised at least 1". More might be better, but that would require raising the lower bolts and I don't want to get into that before a trial with only a 1" raise. Tomorrow I hope to get the engine up 1".


I'll be very interested to hear how that works, as I think then it will be around where mine is (which I have not had a chance to try). When you get yours raised by 1", would you mind measuring the distance from the top of the transom cap to the center of the second-down engine mount hole? I'm just curious to compare it more precisely to mine.

Sunbeam
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Roy & Dixie



Joined: 29 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

probably could have trimmed my saga a bit Maybe it will end up helping someone else in future though.

Roy & Dixie wrote:
It definently needs to be raised at least 1". More might be better, but that would require raising the lower bolts and I don't want to get into that before a trial with only a 1" raise. Tomorrow I hope to get the engine up 1".


I'll be very interested to hear how that works, as I think then it will be around where mine is (which I have not had a chance to try). When you get yours raised by 1", would you mind measuring the distance from the top of the transom cap to the center of the second-down engine mount hole? I'm just curious to compare it more precisely to mine.


You had mentioned your problems with your trailer redo by the "experts" earlier. Interesting all you went through. I did make a few calls to some local shops and several scared me off. Some did not even know the state's laws related to weight and brake requirements. This goes back to why I want to learn how to and then do it myself. My mentioning the origion of the thread is because I got off the subject a few posts earlier. Most everything I have read on this forum is helpful. Thataway's advice re an IR thermometer for example.

I'll post those measurements as soon as the engine raise is completed.
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