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C-Nile



Joined: 09 May 2008
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City/Region: Connecticut
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C-Dory Year: 2012
Vessel Name: Betty Ann
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

journey on wrote:
Well, C-Nile, et al, my question has been answered. The Marinaut hull is a cored single structural element just as the C-Dory has.

Both the Marinaut and C-Dory are built the same way, with a layer of lightweight material, keeping 2 layers of fiberglass apart to give structural rigidity. Good, strong light weight construction. Every time I cut another hole in the interior structure of Journey On, I find the same cored layup. Good construction, lightweight boats, both of them. Used in airplanes, spacecraft, anywhere where weight counts.

I wouldn't count on any vessel flotation qualities, though. The floatation offered is the difference in specific gravities between the composite structure and water. Between the fiberglass and the foam/wood, that should be nil. I believe that's the conclusion reached in the Latitude 38 article, if you want an actual test.

BTW, balsa coring and foam coring both offer unique advantages. There are good reasons to select one over the other, and neither is "better." So lets not go there.

Boris


Boris,

This is not about comparing one boat to the other. I was on the Marinaut Forum and stating about a specific feature peculiar to the Marinaut, which so happens to be not present in the C-Dory, and which in this particular case is advantageous. And that feature is a sealed in sole that is separated from the hull by a gap in space above the hull floor. On your boat, you are standing on your hull, on my boat, I'm standing on the sole that is sitting above the hull.

I'm sure there are many features on your boat which are advantageous over my Marinaut. Case in point: you have a head, your beam is wider, and your greater length may give you a more pleasant ride in rough seas. In fact, I don't know if you can really compare a CD 25 to a Marinaut, because the 25 is in a different class of boat. My wife and I did not want a CD 25, because we were more interested in fuel economy and to keep our overall boating costs down. And it was also our preference to have an open berth like on a CD Tomcat, which is also a beautiful boat. I've met other C-Dory owners who love their berths closed in, and even though I'm sure they know they could change it to have a more open set-up, they would choose not to do so.

One of the problems, I think, and I can't blame you, is that for the greater part of the year, much of what you have heard about the Marinaut 215 has come from me. As more Marinaut owners come forward, it will be better for me to back away and let them speak, because I don't want to become a polarizing influence. My entire objective from the beginning has been to educate the entire C-Brats community on the Marinaut, just as I have been educated on the C-Dory line. Do you know that in the Northeast, there are no cost effective alternatives to the C-Dory line or Marinaut? I traveled across country to see the Marinaut in person. I greatly admire people out in the pacific Northwest for crafting American made products and for their hard work ethic, and that is equally true for the manufactures of both the C-Dory's and Marinauts. I feel that both manufacturers have a lot of integrity in craftsmanship, and would be very unhappy if more jobs were shipped overseas. I truly want both manufacturers to succeed. The Marinaut is a cousin of the C-Dory's, and deserves equal consideration for her unique features and capabilities, much the same as anyone would choose one C-Dory model over the other. All boats are wonderfully constructed and have unique capabilities.

Thanks for reading by long-winded response,

Rich

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CD 16 Cruiser "C-Nile" Sold 06/2011
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BrentB



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is the sole attached to the hull?
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C-Nile



Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrentB wrote:
How is the sole attached to the hull?


Brent,

A picture is worth a thousand words. Please click on the below link

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brent,
There are a number of pilot house boats built in the Eastern part of the US--none are semi dorys. But there are some very good and very useful boats built in the North as well as the Souther East Coast.

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Thataway
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C-Nile



Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Brent,
There are a number of pilot house boats built in the Eastern part of the US--none are semi dorys. But there are some very good and very useful boats built in the North as well as the Souther East Coast.


Dr. Bob,

I think you were directing that toward me and agree with you. However, name me one trailerable, cruising, pilothouse boat made on the East Coast that 1) costs under $80,000 fully equipped, 2) gets 4+ mpg, 3) sleeps two comfortably with most amenities one is looking for in a cruiser like stove, heater, dinette, ample storage space, running water and a spacious berth, 4) has an outstanding quality of construction, and 5) has a draft under one foot? My wife and I went to boat show after boat show -- the largest in the Northeast to include New York, Boston, Providence and Hartford, and we concluded that the only two boats that would meet that criteria were the C-Dory 22 Cruiser and the Marinaut 215 -- both made in the PNW.

Rich
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BrentB



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C-Nile wrote:
BrentB wrote:
How is the sole attached to the hull?


Brent,

A picture is worth a thousand words. Please click on the below link

http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album1852&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php


C-Nile
Perfect thanks a million
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Matt Gurnsey
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Venture Series of boats (23 and 26) also use a similar interior pan arrangement as the Marinaut. I'm not sure how it's sealed in the hull, and I seem to recall seeing one with an access "pie" plate, which might compromise and water tightness of the space.
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,
My apology about the name-yes, I was addressing you.
You posted "Do you know that in the Northeast, there are no cost effective alternatives to the C-Dory line or Marinaut?"

You don't shop for boats just at boat shows. You research the various publications, look at used boats, do internet research, and often depend on people who have more experience than you. I am very glad you have a boat which works for you--it would not work for us, for a number of reasons.

To address your quote--and challenge that there are no other satisfactory pilot house boats on the East Coast.

There are multiple small builders who build on the down east, Sea Skiff, and similar type hulls. There are also larger builders such as Rosebrough (currently built in the USA) along with SeaWay and Eastern, Parker is extremely popular on the East Coast, Shamrock (mostly inboards), MayCraft, Steiger, and Atlas/Acadia come to mind off hand. of boats available, also some of the Nimble/Kodak type of boats meet these criteria. (and a bunch of others, which have a different hull forum--like the Adventure craft etc)...
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C-Nile



Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thataway wrote:
Rich,
My apology about the name-yes, I was addressing you.
You posted "Do you know that in the Northeast, there are no cost effective alternatives to the C-Dory line or Marinaut?"

You don't shop for boats just at boat shows. You research the various publications, look at used boats, do internet research, and often depend on people who have more experience than you. I am very glad you have a boat which works for you--it would not work for us, for a number of reasons.

To address your quote--and challenge that there are no other satisfactory pilot house boats on the East Coast.

There are multiple small builders who build on the down east, Sea Skiff, and similar type hulls. There are also larger builders such as Rosebrough (currently built in the USA) along with SeaWay and Eastern, Parker is extremely popular on the East Coast, Shamrock (mostly inboards), MayCraft, Steiger, and Atlas/Acadia come to mind off hand. of boats available, also some of the Nimble/Kodak type of boats meet these criteria. (and a bunch of others, which have a different hull forum--like the Adventure craft etc).


Hello Bob. You would not believe the extent of our research we performed, which was not relegated soley to boat shows. I even read Devlin's book on boat building, as well as other designers. Not one of the production boats you listed meets the criteria I stated in the challenge, albeit most are very good boats. We actually considered the Rosoborough and Atlas Acadia, but these were larger boats, did not meet our fuel efficiency requirements, the Acadia had too much draft, and both cost over $100k fully equipped. For those people who have Rsoboroughs, though, it is an intelligent choice and a boat of superior construction. However, it was too expensive for our desired overall costs of ownership. The 23' Parker is inexpensive, but is really a fishing boat. The 23 footer only gets 2 mpg, its berth is not anywhere near as nice as on C-Dory's. It does not have a dinette. Smaller Seaway's are not as efficient or as good for multiple nights unless one gets a Coastal Cruiser, but it was over $100k and its fuel economy was not great. Larger Eastern boats are good but are expensive and not as fuel efficient. We looked at Steigers and Maycraft, but these did not meet our criteria, either. We even looked into the Nimble. While fuel efficient, it can be underpowered. It wonderfully uses space, but is not designed for rough water.

If a person wants a lot of space and economy, sailboats fit that need for sure -- if you like living in a cave.

What My wife and I found frustrating, was that virtually every boat we examined, something was sorely missing. Now I understand why qualified people design and build their own boats. Our Marinaut was the closest vision to what we wanted in a boat, albeit we would have been happy with a CD 22 if we customized it with features we desired. Indeed, the Marinaut is a direct beneficiary of ideas generated from C-Brats, particularly Dave's input and Ben's hull design. So we flew across the coast to test out a Marinaut. We fell in love with it. It met our objectives, and its total annual cost of ownership is very reasonable for the Northeast.

Rich
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to Oldgrowth Dave extensively about the Marinaut design and also took a good look at it at EQ. As Rich correctly points out, the bottom of the boat does have a "double hull" feature. E.g. the outer hull is constructed very similarly to our C-Dory's (with foam instead of balsa core. After the hull is complete a floor liner is added and glassed in all around. The floor liner has a gap between it and the main hull and the gap is considerable in the center of the boat, under the berth and under the risers one which the seat sit. That ENTIRE area is closed off and sealed. To my knowledge, there is no foam between the one-piece floor liner and the hull, but there is a considerable volume of air there (Dave or Les - correct me if I'm wrong on that). There are no holes whatsoever floor liner and part of Dave's design was to assure that none would be needed. The attachment points for the seats etc. are molded into the floor liner in such a way that no through holes penetrate the liner. I seem to recall that either stainless or aluminum plating was molder in where it was needed so that one can drill into and tap a threaded hole without compromising the flooring integrity (again I could be wrong with my memory here). The plus side is effectively a double hull and a liner that won't leak even if the outer hull is penetrated.

The down side is a loss of storage space in the void areas. E.g. if you cut holes to put hatches in under the berth, you penetrate the liner. Also the storage space on the bottoms of the cabinets and under the area where your feet are while seated at the dinette, is also "lost" to gain the sealed liner. Another potential issue is that if the hull is compromised (and if the void is not foam filled) the volume below the floor liner could fill. This might actually be beneficial and provide some balast that would keep the boat from turtling - I don't know but I suspect it might be helpful. Again, this comment depends on what is in that void.

To my mind, the loss of storage area in places that I had a lot of things stored in my CD22 was a poor tradeoff for the benefits of a double hull, but that's my personal choice and not one with which everyone would agree.

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Jake



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course you do have a choice with the Marinaut, Les would be happy to modify the 215 and add hatches and storage, it's the customers choice if they desire to forgo the sealed air space between the sole and the hull by adding storage. I'm not sure why they weren't molded into the sole mold in the first place. Seems like you could mold in the storage and retain the air thight space.

Jake
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C-Nile



Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake wrote:
Of course you do have a choice with the Marinaut, Les would be happy to modify the 215 and add hatches and storage, it's the customers choice if they desire to forgo the sealed air space between the sole and the hull by adding storage. I'm not sure why they weren't molded into the sole mold in the first place. Seems like you could mold in the storage and retain the air thight space.

Jake


Hello Jake,

It's nice to hear from you again. Roger did a fantastic job of describing how the Marinaut floor pan was put into place, which was much better then I did. I agree with him that the CD 22 has more storage space if one takes into account only the cabin. However, if you take into account the space under the splashwell, the Marinaut has quite a lot of storage space. I have been honest with people in saying that my wife and I have all the space we need. That may not be true for others who fish and have other activities requiring more space.

Over a year ago, Les and I discussed adding hatches and storage into the sole area so long as high quality hatches that were water and air tight were installed. Les tends to be conservative as I am, so he leaves it up to the customer. "Primetime" Steve showed me pictures of his hatches, and I've got to tell you it is tempting to do what he did. I'm sure he will be posting pictures for the group. I don't see it as compromising the security of the enclosed space so long as a person is vigilant to ensure that the hatch is secured when underway.

I would like to also point out that not having a portable toilet in the cabin frees all that space in the V-Berth for storage that would otherwise be used for the Portable toilet.

One thing I am thinking about doing this year is to make a separate berth extender. When we are docked or anchored, it would be nice to leave the dinette cushions in place and use a separate berth extender in its place. The extender could double for storage of clothing or small items. BTW, it would also extend the storage space underneath. The advantage is that we can leave the bed made up and ready for use without as much exertion. I don't know how well it will work, but I intend to give it a try. So you see, there really is a lot of storage on the Marinaut.


Rich
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Les Lampman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starcrafttom wrote:
boy I would like to hear from the builder on this one.


Gosh, I'm sorry I missed this at the time, I must have had an awfully lot going on.

Okay, first of all, I don't market the Marinaut with the idea that it's a "double bottom" boat, or unsinkable, etc. Since we have a very strong hull (and the boat is light) the biggest advantage I see to the owner/user of the M215 is that the one-piece liner keeps water from getting down into the under deck spaces (as long as it's not compromised by running screws and such through it that are not properly bedded).

The "floor" or "liner" in the Marinaut 215 sits on a "shelf" that's a step molded into the hull. The liner is one piece from the bow to the transom. It's placed in the hull while the hull is still in the mold and bonded in place on the "shelf" or "step" that's part of the design of the hull. At this point (as long as the part has been bonded properly) we have a watertight and airtight compartment between the liner and the hull. The Coast Guard says that we can NOT call or consider that a buoyancy chamber because part of it is made up by the hull itself.

Most of the time, in a typically loaded M215, the "step" in the hull (where the liner is bonded) is above the waterline. If one managed to breach the hull below the level of the liner whatever water entered the hull would remain below the liner and would not compromise the cabin and/or cockpit spaces. That's making a lot of assumptions, like: the impact doesn't compromise the liner-to-hull bond, and that holes haven't been put in the liner by cutting open a portion of it for storage, or by running fasteners into it that aren't sealed, etc.

This has nothing to do with hull construction per se. The hull is of typical sandwich construction with an outer layer of fiberglass, a core of foam, and an inner layer of fiberglass; in that respect it's no different than hundreds of boats. The only thing in the M215 that (maybe) gives it an edge if one happens to breach the hull is the bonded-in liner providing (hopefully) the effect of a "double bottom" by keeping whatever water makes its way into the breached hull out of the cabin and cockpit (as long as the bond remains intact and the liner has not been compromised previously by holes). In this regard it's completely different from a C-Dory (and a lot of other boats as well).

To me, the idea that the Marinaut has some resistance to filling up with water if I hole the hull below the waterline comes along as a perk; it's not "the" selling point of the boat and I don't want folks to think they're getting an "unsinkable" boat because of the bonded in liner. I do think it might be helpful in the right circumstances and if it was my day to experience those circumstances I'd be happy to stay dry. That said, it's a pretty unlikely scenario in the first place and the strong cored hull helps keep it from becoming a reality.

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chimoii



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have learned long ago that every boat is a compromise. Do we want space? mpg? Light weight? Unsinkable? Usually one has to trade off one feature against another. I loved my Boston Whalers in a previous life partly because they were unsinkable. I know Bob may disagree on that point but once they shifted to the current foam recipe, about 35 years ago, the foam stopped absorbing water and they could happily be cut in half and driven around as two pieces, even after time in the water. The military tested a few with machine guns below the water line and were convinced. I swamped mine a couple of times and was grateful for "swamped capacity". Have a look at the BW website if you don't know what that means. No other builder publishes those numbers. I did things with my whalers that I would never do with any other boat. In the end I bought a C-D Venture 23. It is not unsinkable but does have some foam in the hull. That makes it heavier and less fuel efficient than a 22. Maybe it also means it rides better. It's a compromise. I use it very differently than I did the Wahlers. The boat and the sea have my confidence and respect.

Don't worry whether your boat is double bottomed or double hulled. Whatever it may be it is only as good as the man or woman at the helm.

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Sunbeam



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mean for this "nitpick" to take away from your main point, which was that all boats are compromises and one needs to choose the best set (of compromises) for ones uses and taste. I agree whole-heartedly with that point.

chimoii wrote:
In the end I bought a C-D Venture 23. It is not unsinkable but does have some foam in the hull. That makes it heavier and less fuel efficient than a 22. Maybe it also means it rides better.


But... I don't see where a foam-cored hull would be noticeably heavier than a balsa-cored one, all else being equal; so that makes me think it's something else (other than foam core) about the Venture 23 that makes it heavier (and probably hull design that makes it ride better - looks like it's an "evolved" hull design as compared to the 22 Cruiser).
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