Sunbeam ~ C-Dory 22 Cruiser

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:58 pm Post subject:

Well this isn't a P-trap like on a kitchen sink (if that's what you're thinking of), but rather a special trap (called a P-trap by Attwood) that is specifically designed by Attwood for a fuel vent. I think it functions more like a dorade vent, although I have not cut one apart to see exactly how it's set up. Let me see if they have a sketch on their site.

Oh right, there is a drawing on that dimensions chart I have in my album. You can see it below; it's sort of like a hard anti-siphon loop instead of a bulkier one made by hose.

Here is what they say about it:

FEATURES:
The Attwood water-resistant 90° fuel tank vent is designed for permanently-installed fuel systems and is intended for use with 5/8" vent hose. Hull thickness should be 9/16" maximum [added by me: or 1" maximum if using the flush-mounted vent]
The unique design helps to avoid ingestion of water into the fuel tank under normal sea conditions and washdown.
The design includes a series of baffles and traps to allow air to move freely while reducing the possibility of water splashing back into the tank.
Eliminates the need for an anti-siphon loop in the vent hose and allows a more direct routing of the hose to the fuel tank requiring less hose for installation.
Meets ABYC H-24 ventilation specifications.

ferret30 · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:13 pm Post subject:

I should have looked more carefully at the picture. It's like an upside down p-trap!

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject:

Grazer · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:39 pm Post subject:

Sunbeam · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:36 pm Post subject:

Hi Grazer,

Sunbeam · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject:

Here are a few photos of my 22's starboard lazarette, which is where the batteries, switches, etc. live. These were taken during the installation, so everything is not completely done (labeled, secured, etc.), but it gives the basic idea. I didn't want components or wires on the locker bottom.

Safety hub and ACR on the inboard (splashwell) side of the locker). The blue blur on the right is the house battery.

Battery switch and negative bus on the outboard side - the shunt is just out of view to the right.

Battery-monitor shunt further aft on the outboard side - not completely wired yet. The grey Cat 5 type cable is what goes up into the cabin and then just clicks into the gauge face unit. It will be secured to the underside of the deck (after photo taken).

I used Weld Mount studs to mount all of the components. Some things don't lend themselves well to the studs, so for those things I mounted Starboard™ panels with the Weld Mounts and then fastened the items to the panels.

Around the edges are glimpses of why I always end up with fourteen projects going at once Crook

I see things I want to upgrade, and it "makes sense" to do them at a particular time ("while you're in there), which is always the same time as the original upgrade. (e.g. new lazarette hatches, cut back core around edges and fill with thickened epoxy, make openings slightly smaller for better fit of new hatches, add backing plates to stern cleats, replace bilge pump through hull, etc. etc.)

thataway · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject:

Why not go with all batteries the same size? This is certainly advisable from a charging stand point, since you put the ACR between the smaller starting battery and the house battery. Also put in as large a house battery as you want. The alternator output should not be limit on the size of the battery. There are good battery chargers (which I believe you are putting in) which work on 110 Volts, and will top off the batteries--which the alternator probably will not when cruising.

Sunbeam · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:49 pm Post subject:

thataway · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject:

You do want to get a charger, or at least subject the batteries to a good charger on occasion, since you will charge to about 80 to 85% with the alternator on the engine. The battery really likes to be 100% Charged. Even with my long distance cruising boats, I had big battery chargers, which I used to top off the batteries with the 120V generator regularly.

It is best if both batteries are the same size; engine vs house. The if the engine is a U !, then it is marginally sized for your outboard, and will be over charged as you charge the larger house battery.

With the house, you need to bring it up to 100% charge--and the alternator will just to do that during normal cruising. If you have a 16 amp alternator output, and a cruising day is 4 hours, that means that you can put out about 12 amps or less, since you have the amount of power used by the engine electrical, plus the electronics you are using. (another 4 amps per hour?)--so maybe 8 amps available. Thus you would have 32 amp hours available--and if you never discharge more than 50% (12.2 volts)--you would only have a 64 amp hour battery.

Best to go with a 100 or 120 amp hour battery, and use solar to keep it topped off. You may not stay in marinas, but you do camp, and have the boat at places where you can plug into mains power and top off the battery., to prolong its life. If you operate a 110 amp hour battery at the top 30 amp hours it will last a longtime, with only about 30 % discharge. If you operate a 60 amp hour battery at 30 amp hours cycle, then you will be 50% discharging it each day. When you start out you will have a fully charged battery, and more power available. Small solar panels are cheap and will allow to keep the battery topped off.

If you don't want to buy a built i charger, then buy one of the West Marine portable 30 amp units. They will charge at either 2 or 5 amps, 30 amps or boost at 75 amps. They are a very good 3 stage charger and will work from 30 to 300 amp hour battery. This is what I used on the 120 amp hour AGM battery I used specifically for the freezer this summer on the C Dory 22.

journey on · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject:

Oh, goodie, a battery charging discussion. OK, here's a couple of thoughts on battery charging.

First, why not have different size battery banks, as long as they're both the same kind (deep discharge lead-acid, for example)? Journey On has a group 30 starting/backup battery and a bank of 2 ea golf cart batteries, about as disparate as you can get.

When the engine alternator is running, and the battery switch is set to both, the input voltage is the same for both batteries. The lower-state-of-charge battery will get the most current, because it's internal impedance will be lower, since it's discharged more. As that battery state-of-charge increases and the terminal voltage rises, the other battery will get a larger share of the available charge current, until both are at the same fully charged voltage. At that time they start to gas, so check water levels often.

All the ACR does is provide isolation to the starting battery until the alternator voltage increases to 13.0 volts for 90 sec. That's the same as my turning the manual switch to both after the engine starts. Battery size differential doesn't matter.

In my sailing days, I too worried about charging the batteries fully, because I didn't run the engine enough. I installed a 200 amp alternator and then found that the battery current (which is what charges the batteries,) tapered off rapidly, so the batteries were never fully charged before I shut down the engine. All I needed was a 50 amp alternator that I could run for a long time. And now that I have a powerboat, that's what I have.

Even when we've spent the night anchored out (and the refrigerator running) the voltmeter climbs to 14 VDC quickly after I start the outboard, and if we're going over a couple of hours, I've seen the voltage climb to ~14.5 VDC. What I really want is a voltage controller for the Honda outboard, and they do sell them. I don't NEED one though.

If you're anchored for a couple of days a small gas generator running through a battery charger is the best way I've found to keep the batteries charged. That saves the outboard and lets you run the generator a longer time. I've used solar panels both at home and on a boat. My feeling is that on a boat, they don't do the job because you can't point them well enough. So why have both a generator and solar panels?

So, in summary, what Sunbeam has done will work well. If he can keep the batteries charged with the outboard, he's home free. Oops, nothing on a boat is free.

One suggestion is to install a cheap voltmeter that reads the battery voltage with a switch so he can monitor both banks. He can see what the state of charge of each bank is when the motor isn't running, and he can tell if both banks are charged. He may already have one, and he may already use it. Then he needs to do nothing more.

Boris

PS this is what happens when you have too much time on your hands. Just waiting for some caulking to dry.

Sunbeam · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject:

Sunbeam · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:21 pm Post subject:

Boris,

Thanks for your input. I understand what you're saying about solar panels vs. generator. As much as I'm "not into" generators, it's a fact they do run and charge anytime you have gas (whether it be cloudy, windstill, whatever), and after all I've kind of thrown in the towel already with that big outboard on the transom Wink

But... I think I'll have to see how it goes first and at least try it without. One good thing is that I'm used to being stingy with the amp hours used, so between that and the "new world" of LED lighting I may be okay. Only one way to find out... use the boat Very Happy

journey on · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:45 pm Post subject:

Well, that Victron BMV-600S is a voltmeter (plus more,) so one could put a switch in there between batteries. If you only checked the other battery for a few seconds, it wouldn't screw up the integration of the amps. Note: this is just an idle comment, not a recommendation for additional work.

I have a 40 amp battery charger in Journey on, stolen from the sailboat we sold. It has a series of lights on the front panel indicating how many amps are going into the batteries. 40-20-10-5-standby, you get one light at a time. Remember, there's some good sized batteries in there. I've never seen the 40 amp light on in Journey On (euphonious, huh?,) the 20 amp comes on at the start of charge, quickly drops to 10 (say 10 min,) stays there for a half hour and then goes to 5 amps. Now the 5 amp light stays on for a long time, but that's the taper charge on a lead acid battery. So 15-20 amps out of that Honda is about all that you can use to charge the batteries. It might take you longer to reach the 10 amp mark, but do you care?

Absolutely right, try it. If the motor doesn't start because of a dead battery, blame Dr. Bob.

Boris

PS Got the dishwasher loaded and going. Judy's out of town this week, not much to do.

thataway · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject:

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:39 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all your input, Bob.

I won't re-quote everything as it is getting long, but just mention a few points.

First, I did re-check with the person who designed my system, mentioning the concerns. He was a bit busy to respond right away point-by-point, but will get back to me later. I asked about the U-1, since I had thought it was less undersized that it was (but I did know it was not completely "oversized") and he said it will either start the engine or it won't. In other words, it won't "secretly" damage the engine in any way. So I can try it. I have the house bank (which I can monitor), and the Honda (manual start + alternator) as backups, and I won't be starting out by going into "the wilderness." My guess is that I'll probably end up getting a larger battery, because I don't like marginal things.

I'm still not completely clear on the house bank size. Specifically why I'll be "working from 40-80% instead of 50% to 100%." I would have thought that if I kept an eye on the monitor, and adjusted my usage commensurately, that I could stay above 50%. I also thought I understood that if I chose not to add generators, etc. that I would be better off with this size battery vs. a larger one (believe me, I wanted to put 4 T-105's onboard Laughing

I'm used to being pretty parsimonious on long-distance cruising boats where we didn't have generators or even very large alternators (or the wonderful LED's). We didn't have super-sophisticated systems aboard, but we did successfully manage them. However...it's a learning curve for me with a small, outboard-powered cruiser, as I have never cruised in this type of boat before (hey, I left my 33# Bruce at home, give me credit! Wink

). Obviously I'll need to get to fuel docks fairly often, so I'm not preparing for 2 months offshore or anything like that (ironically I'd probably do a better job of that). I was thinking that since many 22's seem really basic, that I, too, could get along fine with what I have until I had some experience in the boat, and then add chargers/generators/solar panels/etc. once I knew if I wanted them and where to place them (i.e. solar panel placement might change depending on whether I use a dinghy or a kayak, etc.). Maybe I missed something (?)

Now I'm thinking that, okay, the worst thing that can happen is that I end up having to replace the house battery sooner than I "should" have had to do. I didn't realize I was setting myself up for problems, but I can accept that there is a learning curve, and if that's the price to pay, I can live with it. I've been concentrating on making the boat "waterproof," so that combined with my relative lack of electrical knowledge led me to consulting with someone more experienced than me (in electrical matters and in small outboard cruisers) on the system.

On the ACR and the two different sized batteries (because even if I get a larger start battery, it's not going to be a Group 31), I guess I didn't understand that fully and will have to educate myself further. I thought it was "normal" in a "new-fashioned" system (i.e. using an ACR) to have two different sized batteries (same age and type though).

My experience is completely not with small, outboard-powered cruisers, and I guess it shows! That's why I consulted with someone else, and I will re-check with that person. Thanks for bringing up your concerns - I appreciate your experience and knowledge.

Sunbeam