Sunbeam ~ C-Dory 22 Cruiser

Emurph8 · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject:

I just took a good look at my set up. There I plenty of height to make. Loop but when I test fit it the 5/8 hose kinked badly in that small space. I took the fitting out and there is a 3/4" hole. The non-flush mount Atwood version would fit in the 3/4" hole? This my be my best option.

Sunbeam · Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject:

Emurph8 · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:30 pm Post subject:

I ordered the Atwood that fits in the 3/4" hole. Decision made. Since I will be reusing the metal fills I have to go back and ground them. Do you know what size wire I need to use for that? The old wire was white but I threw it out I don't remember what size it was. Is white the correct color? Does it matter?

Thanks!

Sunbeam · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:32 pm Post subject:

Emurph8 · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:23 am Post subject:

My old tanks were plastic but they did have fuel senders. That's what started this whole project for me, the duel gauge wasn't working. If in don't need to ground the fill they would be great but I'm pretty sure it needs to be grounded due to static electricity? Ill try and find more info also.

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:44 am Post subject:

I just read through ABYC's section H-24, which pertains to gasoline fuel systems. I think I found the answer in section 24.15, Fuel-System Grounding (although anyone who knows better please correct me):

"24.15 FUEL SYSTEM GROUNDING
Each metal or metallic plated component of the fuel fill system and fuel tank, which is in contact with the fuel, must be grounded so that its resistance to the boat's ground is less than one olnn. Wire ends shall not be clamped between the fill pipes and hose."

The bit that caught my eye is, "which is in contact with the fuel" (emboldening mine). I think your senders would have been in contact with the fuel, so they would have to be grounded, but our fillers are not in contact with the fuel (presuming they mean constantly, which I don't know for sure and which may change things if I'm misinterpreting it). So perhaps your senders were grounded to the fills and the purpose was to ground the former not the latter?

Sunbeam

Bill K · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:55 am Post subject:

I believe that the filler is suppose to be grounded also because of the gas fumes and the chance of a spark between the nozzle and the filler.

I know I have always been told to keep the nozzle in contact with the filler for that reason.

Bill Kelleher

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:10 am Post subject:

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:42 am Post subject:

I started a new thread specifically to address the question of grounding metal fuel fills, so maybe we can have further discussion over there. Here is a link to it:

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?p=232877#232877

thataway · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:12 pm Post subject:

I believe the "Federal law" applies to commercial, and inspected craft.

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:34 pm Post subject:

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:56 pm Post subject:

Back to (other) projects on my boat. Having a very frustrating morning, so I'm probably venting as much as anything Angry

I've been epoxying for around 15 years now, and I've never had a failure. I chalk that up to being careful and tidy as I mix, apply, etc. Well, now I've experienced my first problem, and I'm in the midst of laboriously scraping it all off Cry

Taking a break now to rest my hands and wrists. I'll relate the tale in case it helps someone else.

So, there is one of those "known" facts that gelcoat (polyester) doesn't stick to epoxy. And there are many times one makes a repair with epoxy (it has superior secondary bonding characteristics among other things), but then wants to gelcoat over it. I had read an article by the Gougeons (WEST System) that said they had done quite a bit of testing (and they typically do good test procedures) and found that it could bond just fine. They said the epoxy should be well-cured.

So okay, I have quite a few areas that I have epoxied that are waiting for gelcoat. "Well-cured' seemed a bit vague (days? weeks? months?) so I called WEST's technical department. They said probably more like days/weeks, not months, and then said that another factor was that it would help to have the resin mixed slightly resin-rich, or at least certainly not hardener rich. Apparently it is free particles of hardener (that are extra and have not linked with resin) that can cause bonding issues with gelcoat. So they said I could hedge my bets by mixing the batch slightly resin rich.

Okay, this felt a bit scary, but it made sense, so I mixed up a batch that was purposely slightly resin rich. I happened to be low on fast or medium hardener, so I used slow (it's 60-ish here). I also mixed in some of WEST's 501 white pigment, at just about the maximum recommended, since I was going over some maroon microballoon faired areas, and was going to overcoat with light-colored gelcoat. Then I painted it on as a last, resin-rich, sort of "tie coat" on my new bilge sump (which I planned to write about with photos when it was done).

Since the batch was not kicking any time soon (slow hardener), I used it to coat a number of other areas that I will be gelcoating (mostly disused fastener holes), and then, since I still had some left, did a little more "bonus' work in the anchor locker. You can probably guess where this is going...

Next day.... hadn't cured. Well okay, it's slow hardener and it was cool overnight. Next day.... started to get a bit worried. Next day.... called tech support again, and they recommended using a space heater to heat the area up well for 12 hours or so. I did that yesterday and last night. Now, it's not that it wasn't curing at all - it did get past the tacky/sticky stage - but it just didn't ever get totally rock hard. I could still make a mark with a fingernail edge. And my leftover inch in the cup was still "smooshable." This morning...... still the same. Okay, so now it has been five days, and I'm pretty sure my problem is not going to go away. But I still wanted to understand it better. I called WEST's tech line again (by the way, I did also explain to them that since I'm on the road, it's hard to carry and deal with the pumps, so I'm using 2:1 System Three resin, but did use WEST 501 white tint, and I have used lots of WEST resin over the years; they said System Three is a fine product too and were very gracious about it).

We went along talking through the job, and when I got to the part about the tinting a light bulb came on. They explained to me that the tinting is basically a resin too, just tinted white. So apparently between the tinting and also mixing resin rich, instead of about 10% resin rich my batch was 20% or so resin rich, and my resin simply ran out of hardener to cross link to and stopped hardening Cry

I did say that I wished that were more clear on the tinting instructions, as I would then have allowed for it (they list a ratio of tint to resin, which I followed, but it was not clear that it IS resin, so you are already making a resin-rich batch -- in case you are changing the ratio in some other way as I was).

So today I'm scraping and sanding all that 501-tinted epoxy back off. It got just hard enough to be a real BEAR to remove. Sigh. Taking a hand break now. Eventually I'll be back to where I was before I added it, and then it will be fine, but for now it's discouraging.

Sunbeam

PS: I did also find out about a potentially useful resin product: I also called System Three's tech line, and they mentioned that they have an epoxy resin specifically for gelcoating over. It's their SB-112, and interestingly it says not only that it can be gelcoated over, but that it MUST be gelcoated over within 48 hours (if one is going to). That suggests some kind of "tie" action. I've always been "old-fashioned' in that I just buy the basic epoxy resin and hardener, and mix my own compounds with basic fillers and etc. -- but I may have to give this a try since I now have a boat with gleaming gelcoat.

Sunbeam · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:28 pm Post subject:

I think I have enough energy left to say...

It's gone. Off my boat. Whew! The coating on the bilge sump; all the little dabs I put on filled holes; and the nicely shaped fillet, cloth tape, and coating in the anchor locker (not the drain hole section, which was done before). Removed, sanded, cleaned up, and tools put away. Glad that's over with (well, except for re-doing what I set out to do in the first place, but that will almost seem fun compared to this!).

Luckily a friend was around, and when I was at my lowest, commiserated by saying, "I know how you feel. There have been times I just wanted to walk along the midline of the boat with a chainsaw, and simply cut it up." Ha, that made me laugh (how did he know?!) (He also gave me a hand getting some of the half-cured resin out, and touched up my chisels mid-job so I didn't have to.) Nice to have a friend around.

So okay, a bit boring and no photos, but I had to tell someone!

Sunbeam

ferret30 · Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:52 pm Post subject:

I have a question about the looping/p-traps used on fuel vents.

Having the loop above the vent seems fine since water entering the vent would tend to drain out.

But a P-trap type device, or a loop hanging below the vent level would cause water to be trapped in the line.

I was under the impression that one wouldn't want to use a p-trap for this purpose since you'd want free flow from the tank for venting without having to push through a trap full of water, but the gas pressure is probably sufficient.

On the other hand, it seems to me that a tank that is dropping in temperature will have lower than atmospheric pressure, causing some of the trapped water to be drawn into the tank.