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spuncopper



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol Reply with quote

Hunkydory wrote:
spuncopper wrote:
Hey Guys:

The problems with Ethanol and other alternative fuels/energy could have been addressed in the 1970's thru the 1980's, and would have been resolved by now. But a president was elected that all but destroyed the alternative fuel programs. Confused

So we can only blame ourselves for letting these programs be dismantled. I find it interesting to read my old Mother Earth News mags (from issue #1 to 100). There were solutions but big oil, utility companies and the American automotive industry didn't want to change. Confused

Take care.


This link to a chart of the yearly history of oil prices causes me to

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Oil/Inflation_Adj_Oil_Prices_Chart.htm

think the flight from the conversion to alternate sources of energy other than oil had much more to do with the rapid increase in the price of a barrel of oil from a inflation adjusted price in 1973 of $20 a barrel to it's peak in 1979 of $113, followed by dropping back to $20 again by 1986, then the reasons you suggest. During the rise it was not difficult to have government & investors interested in most all the alternatives, but us tax payers & the investors all lost big on these investments when the price dropped back down. Private investment money is now even harder to find for these high risk endeavors requiring huge outlays for R & D with a proven high risk from the past without us taxpayers guaranteeing the results, such as the big losses we picked up recently in the solar business failures & taxpayer subsidizing of wind & ethanol.

With the huge oil & gas finds here in the US recently & the ability to extract with fracking at a comparably low cost recovery it will even further make alternative energy more difficult to compete.

Jay


All very true... and deliberately manupulated by the oil/gas industries to force opening these oil/gas fields, which, as an enviromentalist I oppose. We needed to end our dependence on oil back them and we do now.
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kennharriet



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I'll vote for energy independence, then we will have the luxury of exploring more alternative energy options than we can stand. Lets face it, anyone who is fortunate enough to enjoy power boating would be a bit hypocritical to complain about the oil industry.
No disrespect intended. Very Happy
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20dauntless



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethanols biggest problem in my opinion is that it takes nearly as much energy to produce it as it contains. Some sources say it actually takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than that gallon of ethanol creates. Combined with the fact that ethanol is less energy dense than pure gasoline, and the case for ethanol gets even worse. The use of corn to produce ethanol also drives up food prices, hitting the developing world particularly hard and creating incentives for replacing forests with fields.

The wide scale implementation of fracking has allowed the US to develop vast oil plays that were previously useless. Apparently we will export more oil than we import this year. So, energy independence may have arrived.

But energy independence has little bearing on the price of oil. Oil is a commodity, priced globally. With demand in developing countries increasing more rapidly than demand in the developed world is decreasing, the overall demand for oil continues to increase.

Further increasing prices are the high costs of extracting oil from many domestic oil plays. The cost of producing a barrel of oil in traditional oil fields, like those in Saudi Arabia, ranges from $6 to $28. Producing a barrel of oil from oil shales, by comparison, costs $52-113. Put simply, fracking and developing oil shales with oil at $50 a barrel doesn't make any economic sense, but at $100 a barrel it looks much better. Costs of developing oil shale plays may go down in the future as technology improves. But that's a big unknown at the moment.

The bottom line is that expensive oil is probably here to stay, and ethanol is not a reasonable means of bringing down prices or saving the environment.

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spuncopper



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: No offense taken Reply with quote

I'm not offended,

But the oil industry is corrupt, badly... so I'll say it... they are corrupt and they have corrupted our government.

Yes I use a power boat... four days a month for close to six months. I used 18 gallons of gas.

The big agribus is corrupt... I eat food.

At one time I designed, built and installed my own solar electric system, and lived off the grid for five years. Then we moved back to the corrupt state of SC to be care givers. We're back on the grid... the utility companies are just as corrupt... I buy their electricity...

I didn't invest any money in wall street... we inherited an investment... we can't cash it out without being penalized... No, I'm not offended, just jaded.
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spuncopper



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:48 am    Post subject: I don't disagree on what anyone is saying... Reply with quote

I agree on what everyone is saying... I became interested in alternative energy in the 1970's when a utility company had regulations passed dictating how/what/where/ and when I could do specific things om my property/home...

I watched, during the oil crisis of the 1970's, as small entrepreneurs started small companies to address these issues. Here's is an example: I worked with several mechanical engineers, a chemical engineer and a gentleman who was an automotive genius (my opinion). After a small accident (no damage, just scared the crap out of several people) they got curious. Could they run a gasoline engine on water?

They found out they could... strictly purified water... using basically on overcharged lead acid battery... capturing the hydrogen. They had it so it would start. Keeping it running was a problem.

They applied for a small grant and it was approved. The project progressed. There were number of problems, but they were working in a small home garage... they lost their grant when a specific president was elected and... they were forced to shutdown.

At present hydrogen fuel cells are being touted... this is old technology.

Hybrid cars... they were being built in the 1970's...

Methane digesters... old! I have the reproduction of a 1930's book describing this process...

The list goes on and on, WE HAD the ability to address these issues decades ago... we trusted the government and the large corporations to take care of us... we have been bitten in the rear-end... that is my gripe and... I am extremely jaded now watching history repeat its self...

Hope this wasn't a rant Rolling Eyes
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thataway



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry Ford in 1908 built a car: Model T--which ran on ethanol, kerosene or gasoline. Gasoline won out for a variety of reasons.

Obtaining hydrogen and oxygen from water is nothing new, even in the 70's. The problem is that it violates the laws of thermodynamics to get the separate elements without consuming more power in the process! Most of these schemes have been frauds. (and there have been a lot of them).

Fuel cells have been around for over 150 years.

Where you are wrong is both in the science and the politics.

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T.R. Bauer



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It takes a stupid amount of electricity to get hydrogen and oxygen to separate in water. Possible? Sure, but like the making of ethanol, if you are using electricity to separate hydrogen and oxygen from their polar covalent bonds, it is going to come at a huge cost. I remember at a science fair recently one of the high school students separated H and O and his research paper said it was something like 60 kw hours to get 2 pounds of H through electrolysis. That is 600 or so 100 watt light bulbs going for an hour to obtain a mere 2 pounds of hydrogen. It is probably more viable to do it with natural gas or oil. Ironic actually.....
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El and Bill



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, the science and politics doesn't necessarily rule out consideration of all alternative energy sources, does it? Certainly, IMO, science should be considered and economics (especially more than politics). Geothermal, solar, and wind can be fine alternatives, where science and economics supports.

Ah, the great hours spent in hot springs, on our sailboat, and basking in sunshine on a cold day. All wonderful alternative energy uses. Now, for generating electricity, to use in my light bulb, there are economic considerations, of course.

But, we often seem to ignore long term economics. This seems especially true when considering alternative energy (nonrenewable vs renewable energy) or costs involved with climate change with certain fuels. For instance, a small monthly increase in my power bill (today) because of the addition of wind power to the grid may be less than the long-term costs of losing non-renewable resources (which have other non-energy uses) or costs resulting from climate change. And, that small increase in today's bill may stay the same for the next thirty years, where dependence on a non-renewable might result in an increase in monthly cost due to depletion of the non-renewable.

Complicated issues indeed - makes one engine vs. two engines seem simple.
Interesting discussion on a cold winter day.

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spuncopper



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Oh Haa Reply with quote

Not the point gentleman! The point is there were various efforts being made to find an alternative fuel/energy and I have my politics right.

The puppet president of big business was instructed by his handlers to end the alternative fuel programs. He was instructed on who to appoint to his cabinet.

It was a controlled Tea Pot Dome Scandal where big oil had polished, smoothed and refined their efforts.

PS it didn't require that much energy to release the hydrogen... the problem they ran into was hydrogen is highly corrosive as is the f---ing alcohol.

But it is a good conversation for a rainy day. We all seem to agree there is a problem... we just don't agree on how to reach a solution... or who was responsible... Smile
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T.R. Bauer



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the point is E-15 is bad for your engine........I think....LOL....
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spuncopper



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Hooo Yaa Reply with quote

Hoo yaa on that.

Have fun guys n gals... I now have a different problem... something called

HONEY DEWS

or whatever my wife has come up wife. Laughing
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localboy



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...and I have my politics right.


Don't we all? Of course, if you ask me, mine is more right than your's. Laughing

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C-Nile



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I don't feel the government nor oil companies are corrupt. Our energy problems are our fault -- the common citizen. Here is why:

Why do people need engines in excess of 100 horsepower? People who trailer boats or need trucks for work -- that is one thing, but the average commuter driving to work does not need it.

"Not in my neighborhood!" Few states want refineries. No new refineries have been built for years. So even though the price of oil has stabilized, refined fuels are in shorter supply due to lack of refinery capacity. Not to mention that everything has to be transported great distances. Add complex regulations to the mix, and it is a real headache for them.

Is our governement corrupt or incompetent because of complex air quality standards? -- absolutely not! Just fly over to Beijing China to see what happens to a country that does not take air quality seriously. Their pollution is so bad, it has been impacting the West Coast of America. People in China are dying early deaths due to pollution. I'm gad to be living in a country where the government has a genuine concern for the health of its citizens.

Our easy to get oil is nearing its end, but newer, albeit more costly methods of extraction such as fracking and deep water driling has undergone a revolution in the past decade. We have enough fuel to be energy efficient.

Why don't we all write to our representtives and demand expenditures for an infrastructure that supports liquified natural gas for our automobiles? It will greatly reduce pollution and help us to meet air quality standards. I'll bet it can be practical for outboard motors, too. Or perhaps we should go one step further and step-up research on hydrogen power sources?

Ethanol E10 -- that's our only choice in New England. What's amusing about ethanol is that it yields approx. 10 percent less energy then gasoline. And not so coincidentally, I get 10 percent less miles per gallon in my car. Is it really helping us? We do have alternatives if we collectively push for them.

Rich

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Levitation



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a farmer I am need to sell my corn for the highest price available. If Ethanol helps me get a higher price, wonderful. The university studies indicate that ethanol raises the price of a bushel of corn from 15 cents to 25 cents (depending on whose study) and that ending ethanol would drop it by that amount.

The flip side of that coin is that as a consumer I am not happy with ethanol. It attracts water, gums up fuel systems, destroys the gaskets on older motors, and does not store well. Along, with the low BTU dropping fuel mileage significantly.
In response we have changed over to diesel for >95% of our fuel use. Only our 2 cars and the plane now use gas.

Those of you blaming ethanol for high corn prices, rest easy. South America and other parts of the world, attracted by high grain prices (not just corn) over the past 5 years are plowing pampa and other delicate grass lands under and growing grain. Most of this land is not suited for long term crop production and the ecological fall out will be considerable down the road.
Anyway, US exports of grains are expected to fall for the foreseeable future and a glut from new foreign production of grain will depress grain prices worldwide.
Significantly, the new demand for petrochemicals to farm this new land will exceed what is used per acre here in the US, putting upward pressure on crude oil prices.

We really need to bite the bullet and pass the laws to end importation of crude oil to the US and operate on domestic sources of energy. (well, that ought to be enough to spin this thread into the moderators round file) Mr. Green

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Sea Wolf



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Levitation wrote:
As a farmer I am need to sell my corn for the highest price available. If Ethanol helps me get a higher price, wonderful. The university studies indicate that ethanol raises the price of a bushel of corn from 15 cents to 25 cents (depending on whose study) and that ending ethanol would drop it by that amount.

The flip side of that coin is that as a consumer I am not happy with ethanol. It attracts water, gums up fuel systems, destroys the gaskets on older motors, and does not store well. Along, with the low BTU dropping fuel mileage significantly.
In response we have changed over to diesel for >95% of our fuel use. Only our 2 cars and the plane now use gas.

Those of you blaming ethanol for high corn prices, rest easy. South America and other parts of the world, attracted by high grain prices (not just corn) over the past 5 years are plowing pampa and other delicate grass lands under and growing grain. Most of this land is not suited for long term crop production and the ecological fall out will be considerable down the road.
Anyway, US exports of grains are expected to fall for the foreseeable future and a glut from new foreign production of grain will depress grain prices worldwide.
Significantly, the new demand for petrochemicals to farm this new land will exceed what is used per acre here in the US, putting upward pressure on crude oil prices.

We really need to bite the bullet and pass the laws to end importation of crude oil to the US and operate on domestic sources of energy. (well, that ought to be enough to spin this thread into the moderators round file) Mr. Green


Denny-O:

Nice discussion / good thinking / big monkey wrench!

Yikes! Politics, again! Laughing

Why not let the Free Market decide?

Offer E-10 along with straight gas types at the pumps and let the consumers decide what they want……?

Amazing how conservative and liberal politic supporters often join one side or the other of the argument when their own pocketbook feels the squeeze.

Apparently philosophy is plastic while money is rigid.

Have a great Sunday, I'm outta here!

Joe. Teeth Thumbs Up

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