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Barry Rietz



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: "E-15" Warning !!! Reply with quote

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
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DaveS



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad the folks that legislate this crap won't be around to fuel their cars with this because they are about to fall over the cliff..... Rolling Eyes
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localboy



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uuuuuurgggghhhhh.... Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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dave



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a couple of local gas stations that sell non-ethanol fuel. Most of the marinas around here also have non-ethanol fuel. I haven't put ethanol added fuel to any boat for about 5 years. I also use non-ethanol gas for my lawn mower and weed eater.
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localboy



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/us/17ethanol.html?_r=0
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thataway



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, Lots of ethanol surplus. Corn prices are up and down--not at the lowest currently. I sold my corn crop last Oct, at the peak--down 45 cents a bushel now than what it was in Oct.

I am morally opposed to ethanol mixed in our gasoline.

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El and Bill



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Ethanol is a renewable fuel made from corn and other plant materials. The use of ethanol is widespread—almost all gasoline in the U.S. contains ethanol in a low-level blend.

Ethanol is also available as E85—a high-level ethanol blend—for use in flexible fuel vehicles." -- http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol.html

Used in the proper vehicles (not necessarily boats, of course), what's wrong with its use? I ask from ignorance, not from political considerations, or other motives.

And, why is it "morally wrong" to use ethanol? What does ethanol in gasoline have to do with morals?

Wow, I must be (politically? morally?) out of it ... Sure didn't hear about this in church or during the primaries. But, I'm not an auto mechanic, so maybe there's some real problem mechanically burning fuel from corn as compared with fuel from ancient rotten bugs, trapped in rocks.

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thataway



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill the moral is a bit tongue in cheek, but when you use those fields which produce corn (in my case it is feed corn) and sell that for ethanol, it makes the cost of feed go up. This increased the cost of both meats and also food grain crops--that is the moral part of it.

As for the pollution or lack of pollution that becomes a bit more of a political question--but adding ethanol decreased the car's mileage.

One answer: "You will get fewer mpg's with ethanol enhanced gasoline
ethanol yields 75-85k BTU'd per gallon
conventional gasoline yields 108-117k BTU's per gallon"

From Consumer Reports--generally an unbiased source--who also calls Ethanol unmoral because it displaces food crops. Granted this is E 85 which is the controversary today---but similar results with E 10.

"We put our 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe FFV through our full series of fuel-economy and acceleration tests while running on each fuel. When running on E85 there was no significant change in acceleration. Fuel economy, however, dropped across the board. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 to 7 mpg. You could expect a similar decrease in gas mileage in any current FFV.

We also took our Tahoe to a state-certified emissions-test facility near our test track in Connecticut and had a standard emissions test performed. We found a significant decrease in smog-forming oxides of nitrogen when using E85. However, ethanol emits acetaldehyde, which the EPA lists as a probable carcinogen and something that standard emissions-testing equipment is not designed to measure. But that might be a relatively minor evil, however.

There are many studies which show the same thing. It costs more, does not really decrease pollution (until you factor in the "cost" of producing the corn/and refining the ethanol, and gives poorer fuel economy- Then add in the real world problems it has caused in vehicles.

Who wins? The ethanol producers--except there is currently a surplus and that is why the push for e 85...The farmer--maybe--but our costs of farming have gone way up--the land is going up 15% a year, chemicals are up, fuel is up etc...
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El and Bill



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Bob - that gives me the factual information I wanted to hear. Now I understand the issue. We appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.
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T.R. Bauer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't have a straight answer to ethanol. Nor can I seem to find one. It is really hard to focus on the answer - that is if there even is one.

I have read a number of times in all kinds of sources that when everything is factored in, and I do mean everything, ethanol enhanced gasoline actually creates more carbon in the end than using gasoline created by conventional methods.

Of course, how much crude oil is secured by conventional methods is hard to figure as so much of it comes from tar sands and other methods that are very far removed from being greenhouse friendly. The folks that promote ethanol certainly say that making it lowers greenhouse gasses. Strangely, big oil doesn't even say a word - probably because they are pulling the puppet strings here too.

Then, there is a moral argument that using up our farmland to make gas is something that shouldn't be done. This really sounds like an emotionally charged argument, but I agree that it is hard to defend and justify tying up countless acres of prime farmland to make something that may or may not reduce our carbon footprint as the "pollution" in doing so has driven up the price of farming (and food) a great deal.

Worth it? Beats me. Personally, I am very happy we don't have any in SC Alaska. Your personal experiences with ethanol give me nightmares about the stuff.
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spuncopper



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Ethanol Reply with quote

Hey Guys:

The problems with Ethanol and other alternative fuels/energy could have been addressed in the 1970's thru the 1980's, and would have been resolved by now. But a president was elected that all but destroyed the alternative fuel programs. Confused

So we can only blame ourselves for letting these programs be dismantled. I find it interesting to read my old Mother Earth News mags (from issue #1 to 100). There were solutions but big oil, utility companies and the American automotive industry didn't want to change. Confused

Take care.
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cbgale



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting white paper that discusses these issues:

http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file/STA-BIL%20files/White_Paper_Ethanol_%20Blended_Gasline.pdf
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Hunkydory



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbgale wrote:
An interesting white paper that discusses these issues:

http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file/STA-BIL%20files/White_Paper_Ethanol_%20Blended_Gasline.pdf





This is the source for your information link. It's not unbiased information & I would not trust it in regarding the use of ethanol in gasoline.

From Wikipedia, "The Renewable Fuels Association (RFA) is an American lobbying organization which promotes policies, regulations, and research and development initiatives that will lead to the increased production and use of ethanol fuel. First organized in 1981, RFA serves as a voice of advocacy for the ethanol industry, providing research data and industry analysis to its members, to the public via the media, to the United States Congress, as well as to related federal and state agencies."

Jay

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Hunkydory



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol Reply with quote

spuncopper wrote:
Hey Guys:

The problems with Ethanol and other alternative fuels/energy could have been addressed in the 1970's thru the 1980's, and would have been resolved by now. But a president was elected that all but destroyed the alternative fuel programs. Confused

So we can only blame ourselves for letting these programs be dismantled. I find it interesting to read my old Mother Earth News mags (from issue #1 to 100). There were solutions but big oil, utility companies and the American automotive industry didn't want to change. Confused

Take care.


This link to a chart of the yearly history of oil prices causes me to

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Oil/Inflation_Adj_Oil_Prices_Chart.htm

think the flight from the conversion to alternate sources of energy other than oil had much more to do with the rapid increase in the price of a barrel of oil from a inflation adjusted price in 1973 of $20 a barrel to it's peak in 1979 of $113, followed by dropping back to $20 again by 1986, then the reasons you suggest. During the rise it was not difficult to have government & investors interested in most all the alternatives, but us tax payers & the investors all lost big on these investments when the price dropped back down. Private investment money is now even harder to find for these high risk endeavors requiring huge outlays for R & D with a proven high risk from the past without us taxpayers guaranteeing the results, such as the big losses we picked up recently in the solar business failures & taxpayer subsidizing of wind & ethanol.

With the huge oil & gas finds here in the US recently & the ability to extract with fracking at a comparably low cost recovery it will even further make alternative energy more difficult to compete.

Jay
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tpbrady



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The typical reason given for ethanol is to reduce dependence on foreign oil. In the Consumer's Reports test they reported more than a 20% decline in fuel economy. I don't think the math supports the use of ethanol to reduce foreign oil imports. I don't think any of the reasons given for using ethanol can withstand the logic test. It's just like our wind farm on Fire Island. Every watt they generate increases my electric bill. That's why I wish for calm weather, the boating is better and my electric bill doesn't go up.

Tom

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