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Scuppers on the Tomcat (and 25)
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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City/Region: Kenmore
State or Province: WA
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C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Meant to be
Photos: SeaDNA
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Scuppers on the Tomcat (and 25) Reply with quote

We've discussed the scuppers and self bailing decks a bit before and while some find them very useful, I've been concerned about the ones on a Tomcat - especially for the way I use my boat. Since purchasing the Tomcat, one concern I've had is how poorly the scuppers drain. We often use a raw water wash down to remove fish blood and the speed at which the scuppers drain is, at best, annoying. I talked to Les at EQ about this during the winter maintenance and I was hoping the drainage problem could be improved upon. However, as Les pointed out the total drop from the cockpit sole to the water line is only a few inches (maybe 3-4 when lightly loaded) and hence it's hard to get the water to drain quickly with so little drop. In Les's opinion (and Les correct me if I'm misstating your words), you can't good a good self bailing deck without a 10-12" drop and you don't see that kind of drop until you get to boats in the 30+ foot category (designs with cockpit floors a foot above the water line require high sides that just don't look right on a smaller boat). So bottom line, nearly all boats in the 20-30' range that have "self bailing" decks, have something that might be more appropriately called a "somewhat self bailing" deck. The problem gets worse when you take a boat like this fishing and or load it down heavily.

For my recent tuna trip, we took 3 large coolers filled with ice and we filled the fish boxes in the floor a little more than halfway with ice. We setup a cooler (and ultimately a fish box) as a "slurry tank" - 1 part sea water to 2 parts ice - in order to rapidly cool down our catch. We probably had around 300-400 pounds of ice and water in the cockpit. We took a fairly full load of fuel (a little over 100 gallons). That's another 600 pounds. We then took on 6 salmon and 13 tuna. The salmon averaged around 8 pounds and the tuna around 20. That's another 300+ pounds in the cockpit. Now put three guys back there at nearly 200lbs/each - another 600 pounds. So we have around 1900 lbs much of which is in the cockpit (thankfully, the 600 lbs of fuel is more in the midship area). That may sound crazy to some of you but we only had 3 guys + ice and fish in the cockpit. Get rid of the ice and fish and put 2-3 other large people in the cockpit on lawn chairs, and you've got close to the same load. Or prepare for a long cruise with a similar amount of ice and some people food in coolers, plus a generator and dinghy engine in the cockpit and you have the same load. I'll also point out that for a recreational tuna boat, we were "lightly loaded" relative to the norm. The guys in the slip next to me went out in a 24' SeaSport with 6-7 coolers and way more ice. They came back with 56 albacore on board. They were definitely overloaded but that's another story.

With that load, the scuppers are at or very near the water line or are perhaps even slightly under the water line. The deck is still above the water line so no water is coming in - assuming that the path between the drain on the deck and the scupper is intact. If that's compromised, water could come in AND more importantly, it would be coming in below the deck where you can't see it. So to back up a bit, the drain on the deck on the Tomcat is connected to the scupper outlet by about 12" of semi-rigid tubing. If that comes loose or if some fitting breaks, water goes into the bilge area instead of going out. Also, the drain from the cockpit is stainless on the part you can see but (at least on my boat) hard greenish or brown plastic where it connects to the tubing (the part you can't see without opening the hatches on the transom and looking down).

On my previous trip, we noticed that the plastic part had separated from the metal part or the transom and that anything we thought was going out the scupper (our deck wash downs) was in fact going into the bilge. Of course if the scuppers were near or below water, this would also be a path from the outside into the bilge. I've since done a reasonable semi-permanent fix with liberal amounts of 4200 but I will be replacing both of these drains with something sturdier during this winter's maintenance. So I've learned that these parts can and do fail and I can see a potential for a serious problem in a heavily loaded boat. So how to reduce or eliminate that problem?

1) I need to add alarms in both sponsons that will go off when the water level exceeds a certain height or that alarm when the bilge pumps run. The concern is that the sponsons could be filling with water and you might not notice it while under power or while busy in the cockpit.
2) I need to replace the drains with a sturdier system.

I suggest all Tomcat (and perhaps 25) owners do the same. I also carry a number of rubber stoppers on the boat that allow me to plug the scupper holes and/or the drain holes.

I'm considering changing the system entirely by doing the following:
1) Glassing over the scupper hole and relocating a new through hole several inches farther up.
2) Installing reasonably large sump boxes in each sponson and pluming the cockpit drains to the sump boxes.
3) Installing macerator pumps to pump out the sump boxes.
4) Adding drains that would allow me to empty the sump boxes into the bilge once they were clean.

The above system would:
a) Get rid of a through hull that I feel is dangerously close to the water line. Even heavily loaded, I'd no longer have to worry about water coming back in the drains.
b) Provide me with a 12-18" drop from the cockpit floor the to sump boxes - things would drain more quickly.
c) The macerator pumps would be fairly tolerant to fish blood and guts that come down the drain pipe.

The only downsides I see are that
a) I would need to thoroughly flush the system with clean water at the end of the day to keep the sumps from getting too nasty.
b) I'd have to provide access to the sumps for occasional cleaning and pump replacement (I already added hatches in the floor to access the macerators attached to the fish boxes).
c) I'd have two more pumps to maintain.
d) Some might not like this fix if we decide to sell the boat (but I plan on keeping it a long time).

Thoughts from others, comments?

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c-ness



Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Roger, on our TC 24 the drains are a bit bigger if I am not mistaken. They are about 3" in diameter, and I use a tennis ball as a plug. They seem to drain the cockpit fairly well, but when we have a full load of fuel and a couple of folks in the cockpit the scuppers are just about at the water line. The rubber flaps do a good job of blocking any back flow if we are reversing into chop (although I did add a bolt to the top of each flap to keep them tighter to the scupper).

Let me ask a couple of questions about your suggestion. First by raising the scuppers a few inches aren't you allowing more water to accumulate in the cockpit? How do you eliminate this water? Maybe I missed something in your explanation. Second, wouldn't you be concerned about the complexity of your new system? Suppose you had some sort of catastrophic systems failure and lost all power. How would you evacuate water? My preference is for a system with as few parts as possible.

Jay

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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

c-ness wrote:
Hi Roger, on our TC 24 the drains are a bit bigger if I am not mistaken. They are about 3" in diameter, and I use a tennis ball as a plug. They seem to drain the cockpit fairly well, but when we have a full load of fuel and a couple of folks in the cockpit the scuppers are just about at the water line. The rubber flaps do a good job of blocking any back flow if we are reversing into chop (although I did add a bolt to the top of each flap to keep them tighter to the scupper).

Let me ask a couple of questions about your suggestion. First by raising the scuppers a few inches aren't you allowing more water to accumulate in the cockpit? How do you eliminate this water? Maybe I missed something in your explanation. Second, wouldn't you be concerned about the complexity of your new system? Suppose you had some sort of catastrophic systems failure and lost all power. How would you evacuate water? My preference is for a system with as few parts as possible.

Jay


Jay, I'd really be taking out the scupper entirely and simply be providing a closed bilge like system for draining the deck. E.g. the deck drains would go to sump boxes below the floor and a macerator pump would empty those well above the water line (at a similar level to the current bilge pump outlets. If I lose all power, the system is closed and the maximum amount of water is what is in the bilge and on the cockpit floor. If the cockpit floor gets a lot of water, I can quickly pull a hatch and drain it into the bilge to be pumped out. If I lose all power, I'm going to be pumping by hand.

I also like simple solutions but the current design with a scupper so close to the water line (or below the water when heavily loaded) is, IMHO, a problem waiting to happen. If one gets a couple of good waves over the stern, those scuppers are below water and I wouldn't count on the flaps to keep them closed. The flaps are easily held open by any kind of debris including pine needles. Then when the scuppers are below the water line, the deck goes from self bailing to self filling. Rubber stoppers (or tennis balls) can be used to plug the scuppers but you definitely want something that will stay in while your motoring. I'm not sure how well either will stay in at speed.

With the bilge pumps below deck, there's no good path to pump the water out of the cockpit in the current system once the scuppers are below the waterline. You then need to get on the throttle and keep the boat moving so that things don't go south in a hurry. An alternative solution might be bilge wells on the cockpit floor and additional bilge pumps (e.g. similar to what other boats do without a self bailing deck). A lot of boat are built without a self bailing deck and with bilge pumps only so the loss of the scuppers would not be any different than what we already have in say a 22. So if I lose all power, I'm in the same state as most other boats when they lose all power. And even with the current system, if I lose all power, I likely can't run my engines (presumably they're not running if all electrical power is gone and then I can't start them). Without the engines to help the current self bailing deck system, I'd be more worried about water coming back in the system than the lack of an ability to get it out. E.g. I think the loss of all electrical power is as bad (or perhaps worse) for the current system than with a close system and bilge pumps. At least with the closed system, no additional water comes in from the scuppers being below the water line.

I could also install a sump bilge system without removing the current system. If I do that, I'd probably want to install a valve just inboard of the scupper so I can eliminate the potential problem of water coming back in the system in a more reliable way. Then I'd plug the drain from the cockpit floor with a rubber stopper and just use the closed bilge/sump system with macerator pumps (I need macerators since I can't count on a normal bilge pump to work if I've got a lot of fish blood going through it).

So I appreciate the thought and concern, I'm just not sure which is worse - a simple solution that I think opens up it's own safety problem. Or a more complex solution with a different set of potential issues. For me, for offshore use with a lot of gear/ice/fish on board, I'm more worried about the scuppers back filling the boat. For others, maybe that's not a concern.

Regardless though, I'd recommend that everyone look at the current self bailing deck setup and insure that all the components are tight and intact. Since the fitting from floor drain in mine separated from the drain, I assume it could happen in other boats too. Also, I'd still recommend that everyone install bilge alarms and regularly test and clean the bilge pumps. I'd also recommend that everyone check to what was installed on both the drain and the scupper side of the system and replace them with more robust parts if possible. Finally, it might be worthwhile to install a shutoff valve just inboard of the scupper.
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Ray



Joined: 13 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good read:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm
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breausaw



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Drain rate through the 25 scuppers is agonizingly slow also, and the leaky lazarette hatches compounds the frustration. So now what I’ve been doing is running up the trim on the motor, than have someone motor along at about 5mph. This maneuver puts the bow angle high so water drains much faster while cleaning the deck.
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

breausaw wrote:
The Drain rate through the 25 scuppers is agonizingly slow also, and the leaky lazarette hatches compounds the frustration. So now what I’ve been doing is running up the trim on the motor, than have someone motor along at about 5mph. This maneuver puts the bow angle high so water drains much faster while cleaning the deck.


Ahh - someone else who fishes and has a similar issue with the rate the scuppers drain. Jay - I do the same when I'm cleaning the deck. However, the slow drainage rate is caused by the limited drop from the deck to the water line and I think "self bailing" is a bit of an over sell if one were to take on a serious amount of water. I'll be interested to hear Thataway Bob chime in on this. I think he likes the self bailing design better than I and I know he'll have opinions that are informed by far more experience than I have.
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump - hoping to catch Thataway Bob's attention to get a reply.
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thataway



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a long answer & then the park wifi dropped my computer!

One approach is to put large fiberglass tube drains ( 2")epoxied in place, with multiple layers of glass on the inside. Of the hull and under the deck. The access is not good. A worry is the fish boxes and possiblity of them filling with water,

The other is to convert those fish boxe to sumps, and keep them from overflowing into the bilge. The macerator is difficult to maintain and access in the Tom Cat is difficult. Perhaps petitioning off the fish box into a sump and putting the macerator pumps in the fish box.

Putting a separate sump on each side would be difficult because of access to the bilge.

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Bad Boy



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have experienced the frustration of these scuppers when tuna fishing, but I find that once I get the Tomcat moving forward, the drains work better as the flapper raises higher and is not held shut by seawater.

My only caution with using a sump pump is that you will be in a world of hurt if pump or electrical problems occur and you need to evacuate the sump manually. I would not eliminate the current scupper drain even with the sump system.

I tried to work with a fiberglass shop to attach a tube between the deck and the side of the hull, but we both felt there would be too much flex between the deck and hull sides that would eventually lead to stress fractures.

I will be researching for a larger diameter scupper system. If anyone locates one, I would love to know. If the 24-ft Tomcat had those, I would love to know where to get a pair.

George
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Ray



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now here's a MAN's scupper:



Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad Boy wrote:
I have experienced the frustration of these scuppers when tuna fishing, but I find that once I get the Tomcat moving forward, the drains work better as the flapper raises higher and is not held shut by seawater.

My only caution with using a sump pump is that you will be in a world of hurt if pump or electrical problems occur and you need to evacuate the sump manually. I would not eliminate the current scupper drain even with the sump system.

I tried to work with a fiberglass shop to attach a tube between the deck and the side of the hull, but we both felt there would be too much flex between the deck and hull sides that would eventually lead to stress fractures.

I will be researching for a larger diameter scupper system. If anyone locates one, I would love to know. If the 24-ft Tomcat had those, I would love to know where to get a pair.

George

George,

One of the reasons for posting my thoughts here is that I get good feedback from people like you, Bob and others. As time has passed, I also came to the conclusion that I probably wouldn't want to completely eliminate the current scupper system but that I will want a much more robust way of shutting off the exit to prevent re-entry of water should the path between the cockpit and the scupper become compromised (as has happened once already in my boat).

I agree with you that glassing that in might not be the best approach due to the flexing issues you mention - especially for tuna (and other) fisherman who will likely run their boats harder and over larger waves than most in the group. I had Les at EQ look into different scupper choices (larger size) and he indicated that there wasn't a larger size readily available then what we have already (without doing a custom design). Also, as I mentioned, in his opinion, the real problem with getting things to rapidly drain was the limited drop and not so much the size of the hole.

As for the electrical system going completely down with a sump system being a big problem, I think that's a bit of a red herring. As I said before, if the electrical system is down to the point that I can't run my bilge or sump pumps, I probably can run or start the engines either so the value of the scupper system is in question then too (e.g. if the boat is already heavy and has the scuppers below water, a non-running boat is a more serious issue). Also, without the scuppers and just the sumps + bilge system, your basically in the same situation as any other boat without a self bailing cockpit but without the additional worry of the scuppers becoming "self-filling". I'm still not sure which is the bigger risk.

Bob - As for the fish boxes filling - that's actually pretty much my goal when fishing. In fact I have filled them with ice and fish on one side and ice/water on another on purpose. The ice/sea-water slurry is the best way to rapidly cool down the warm blooded tuna we catch. I do have macerator pumps installed on both fish boxes and mine are set up so they don't overflow into the bilge. I've added circular hatches into the cockpit floor in each after corner to allow access to the bilge. It's still not super easy to replace the macerator pumps and bilge pumps but now that I've replaced one macerator pump, I know I can do it more quickly in the future. I'm thinking about replace the circular hatches with hatches that have a round lexan cover so I can more easily see into the bilge.

I do have a bilge alarm installed - I didn't realize it but the previous owner added one. I think that's something all Tomcat (and perhaps CD25) owners should consider adding. Without it, you might not know if a problem is developing below deck until it's too late.

As for the sump idea, I'm not yet set on it. I need to mull it over a bit longer and perhaps test fit a potential model or two. One issue is that I already have 7 pumps to maintain on this boat - 2 macerators (one for each fish box), 2 bilge pumps (one in each pontoon), 1 fresh water pump, one bilge pump in the sump for the shower and one raw water wash down pump. That's a lot of pumps to protect from winter weather and freezing and a lot of pumps to need replacing. I've already had to replace one macerator which failed in <4 months and the fresh water pump (due to my own failure to properly protect it over the winter). I may just increase the size of the two bilge pumps and call it good or I may just add some redundancy in the bilge pumps (yep, more pumps).

But one thing I can say for sure, after I saw the cockpit drain tube separated from the metal fitting (out of sight behind the hatch in the transom), I've been worried about the scuppers filling the bilge in a heavily loaded boat. Somehow I'll fix that concern.
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BrentB



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some Parker boats have 5" x 2" scuppers. TH Marine has them
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrentB wrote:
Some Parker boats have 5" x 2" scuppers. TH Marine has them

Those are fine for when the cockpit floor ends directly at the outermost edge of the hull. However, on the Tomcat, the outermost edge of the cockpit floor is still many inches away from the hull side so you need to be able to connect a drain line/hose/something between the drain in the floor and the scupper. Hence the round scupper and I think 2" diameter is about as large as these come.
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BrentB



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They had a fiberglass tube or shoot to the outside of the hull.
I estimate few inches wider than the width of a battery.

Other misc questions.
What is the weight capacity for a TomCat? Are you over loaded?
Do you have second pump installed higher than primary pump for backup?

Thanks
Best
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rogerbum



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrentB wrote:
They had a fiberglass tube or shoot to the outside of the hull.
I estimate few inches wider than the width of a battery.

Other misc questions.
What is the weight capacity for a TomCat? Are you over loaded?
Do you have second pump installed higher than primary pump for backup?

Thanks
Best


Brent,

The weight capacity is an interesting issue. The manual claims "Maximum Gross Wight=8000 Lbs The maximum gross weight is the total weight of the boat, motors, fuel, gear and passengers."
They also claim the weight of the hull (less motors is 6000lbs). With twin Honda 135's weighing 480lb each and 150 gal fuel capacity (6 lbs/gal) + 20 gal of water (2/3 full, 8lbs/gal), the boat is at 8020lbs before anyone or anything gets on it. Since that makes no sense whatsoever, I can only assume that the Max gross weight for the hull is wrong in the manual and there's a previous thread on this topic where it is agreed that most have the boat loaded to well over the "max gross" weight of 8000lbs.

I can tell you that with a full load of ice and tuna, I'm heavier than most people will ever run but I can also tell you that with just the full load of fuel, the scuppers are already damn close to the water line and they don't go down much more when I add the ice and people.

At present, we have a bilge pump in each sponson at the bottom but no secondary bilge at a higher level. If I drop the hose from the both fish boxes down (a 1-2 min. job - or cut it (faster), the macerators could be used as secondary bilge pumps. But I like the idea of adding another set of bilge pumps that are a bit higher up.
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