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A larger Marinuat (wherefor art thou)...
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c-ness



Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 521
City/Region: Bellingham
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 24 Tomcat
Vessel Name: C-weetness
Photos: C-weetness
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even without the dinghy use having a transom door would be a nice addition. I'm still pretty young (60s), but I have a number of older friends that find it very difficult to get into the cockpit of the tomcat. These folks have hip and knee problems that limit their mobility. A transom door would greatly aid their ability to enjoy the boat. And having visited friends with a Ranger tug I think I would like using the transom door. Of course that is not an option with the tomcat but as I age I might think about a boat with a transom door.
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Leo Smith



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 193
City/Region: West Seattle
State or Province: WA
Photos: Leo
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding a few feet to the Marinaut 215 hull and cabin to create a space for an enclosed head makes a lot of sense. The benefit of a dedicated enclosed head compartment (rather than a porta-potty under the v berth) might big selling point for a lot of couples.
Having an enclosed shower on board appears to be an expensive "driver" for the design revisions that are making the Marinaut approach 26'. Most marinas have coin-operated showers, and when you are on the hook, a solar shower can work. It would be interesting to take a poll of 25' CD owners and find out how many times a year they use the showers on their boats.
I think it pays to stick with the "KISS" approach. During a previous ownership, C-Dory lost sight of the "KISS" approach and ended up with the CD-29. Nuff said about that.
best regards,
Leo
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bshillam



Joined: 21 Aug 2007
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City/Region: Bellingham
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1981
Vessel Name: Heaven To Me
Photos: My Heaven
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:09 am    Post subject: Larger boat Reply with quote

Our family has been both new and now a very much used Dory owners. If I was an optimist I would say that we will be looking for something larger in a few years as we get more settled in our new state. Knowing what we continue to be attracted to I would say a boat with a transom door such as the current Rangers really do make entering the boat easier specially when your carrying a large load onto the boat. I also feel it creates an "up scale" image. I for one would vote for the transom door. I like the fact that your current version is more than a CD 25 and V26. Its similar but not the same. I believe after someone does the research into these boats, learns of your desire to produce one of the best boats in value and function they would be excited to work with you.
Also I personally think one that looks at 99500 vs 105 can easily justify the difference for the "right" boat. Usually people that are attracted to a Dory style boat are educated buyers and can see the value in the boats we buy. After all if 5k is going to sway some to a different line then they are probably not your customer.?.
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bobjarrard



Joined: 03 Oct 2010
Posts: 458
City/Region: Boulder City
State or Province: NV
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:57 am    Post subject: transom door Reply with quote

The wife has had three hip replacements. No transom door means she cannot boat. I like the offset location for the door but suggest perhaps letting it flush swing to the outside middle to free up cockpit space. Also, no stern sea can push it open. An alternative would be to have it swing in on the same side as the cabin door (this leaves one long side of the cockpit open). I really like the sliding cabin doors, they may leak a bit more than swinging doors but they again keep the cockpit more open. I would be willing to have a good step/sill below the door to stop water from going into the cabin. Thanks for keeping us all in the loop Les, a builder who listens to his customers is a rarity.
Bob
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ddenver



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 377
City/Region: Quilcene
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 23 Venture
Vessel Name: C-Renity
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you mentioned the $350K investment is indeed difficult to justify and presents a formidable issue especially in this questionable economy.

The ideas behind the M259 definitely appeal to us as a next boat (a jump up from our current Venture 23') and would indeed be a boat capable of handling our needs in the future.

Large enough to allow longer duration stays on the boat offering more comfort and space then we presently have. More room but still offering relatively good fuel economy, a possibly better ride, and also being light enough to allow us to avoid being forced into buying a much larger and more expensive tow vehicle all combine to add up to an attractive package.

Whereas the over $100K range is indeed formidable other boats we would consider to meet some of our expectations would be equally or even more expensive such as the Ranger Tugs, a larger C-Dory, or other possible options and would all also require the additional investment in a heavier tow vehicle.

A transom door also greatly appeals to us and would indeed serve an aging and sometimes physically limited population well and also offer easier boarding for gear, provisions, and pets too.

I will definitely be following along on this site with a keen interest in your future actions sir. Good luck in whatever you decide to do Les!

Take care,
Dan, Tanya, and Hannah Denver on C-Renity
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: transom door Reply with quote

bobjarrard wrote:
T like the offset location for the door but suggest perhaps letting it flush swing to the outside middle to free up cockpit space. Also, no stern sea can push it open. I really like the sliding cabin doors, they may leak a bit more than swinging doors but they again keep the cockpit more open.
Bob


Any transom door, perhaps short of those in the larger sport fishers which include both layers of the transom, do offer some compromise in seaworthiness, especially in a non self boating boat.

An athwartships sliding aft bulkhead door becomes a guillotine . This is not a seaworthy design in a small boat.

One has to understand what works in boats that are used at sea, vs boats which are condo queens.

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Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
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Home port: Pensacola FL
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Dene



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 444
City/Region: Kalama
State or Province: WA
Vessel Name: Fear Naut & Terra-Sea-Ta
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les,

Having personally seen your 21 footer, I do believe you have designed a perfect boat in that class, in terms of ride and creature comforts.

But what to do about 2 foot-itis...or 4?

Questions and comments. We discussed the distinction in the ride between the CD 22 and 25. Would the M25 has the same issues? If so, then I'd consider just lengthening your existing hull by a couple of feet and call it good. There is little competition in the 23/24 foot range.

Being that you are a dealer with Arima, I think you would agree that the multiple floorplans they offer is brilliant. Those who want a enclosed head can have it by eliminating or shrinking the galley...or dinette...or cockpit. Others may not need a galley...or a dinette. So....create two or three interior floorplans on the existing, lengthened hull and call it good. Personally, I'd stay out of the 25 foot market. Too many competitors and if you can't keep your price under a 100k, then you really don't have an edge.

But...aside from the Venture 23 and maybe a Seasport, there is little competition in the 24 foot range. As they say in sales, "can bitch when you find a niche." Case in point, Ranger Tug built a business by designing a unique boat in their niche. Your opportunity is there too...but in the 21 foot and 23/24 foot class.

My two bits. (Got your email. Will reply tomorrow).

-Greg
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Les Lampman
Dealer


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, lots to catch up with (the last few days have been busy!)...

And I did indeed spell Marinaut incorrectly in my heading. Embarassed

Lots of great input here and I really appreciate it. It's very helpful to have feedback and how folks "feel" about the design.

So, at random, here are some more comments:

The transom door is not properly configured (thanks for pointing that out); I posted the drawing almost as soon as I received it and I did not notice how it had been drawn in. It will be on the outside of the transom and will open to the outside (toward the centerline). Since it will fit flush against the outside of the transom I don't feel like there's too much compromise in the watertight integrity of the aft cockpit bulkhead.

It is my considered opinion that in a power boat under about 28-feet in length that there isn't graceful a way to have a true self-bailing cockpit. You can't make the sides high enough to ensure a self-bailing cockpit without making the boat appear very slab-sided. And since builders want to sell boats they make them look nice. Most so-called self-bailing cockpits are only inches above the waterline, or maybe a foot at best. The argument I always hear for self-bailing decks is safety rather than convenience yet with two, three, or four people in the cockpit the scuppers are underwater. What about that theoretical breaking wave? Dump even 100 gallons (not much really, think about a 100-gallon aquarium) into the cockpit and you've exceeded the weight of four typical folks, the same ones that put the scuppers underwater. Now take on about 500 gallons of water from a wave (how much do you think it could dump in the cockpit if a wave crest breaks over the boat?) and on most "self-bailing" boats the scuppers will be "self-filling" versions. I think the best reason for what's called a self-bailing deck in most small boats is for convenience, you can wash the boat out and have the water run overboard (at least on some designs) and if it's raining hard it will drain overboard. Calling most designs self-bailing from a safety standpoint is misleading at best and downright untruthful in most cases.

I did make a change to the aft cabin door earlier but it's not reflected in the drawing. The door should swing to the starboard side (which is wider) to allow it to fully open against the aft cabin bulkhead. You really only need cockpit space to swing the door, once it's open it's up against the bulkhead. I don't think a sliding door is the answer, I find that the ones that work easily are a menace and the ones that aren't are very difficult to slide. As a builder I cannot rely on everyone aboard, every time, pushing in a pin or flipping a lock to keep the sliding door from hurting someone. It's just going to get left undone some time and then someone is going to be injured. If it doesn't slide freely you'll fight it every time someone opens or closes the door. The door on the M215 is removable, I could carry that over to the M259 then one wouldn't even need full swinging room.

There is a sill at the bottom of the cabin door as there is in the M215 to keep water in the cockpit.

If I add a bracket to the M215 seven out of the nine molds would need to be changed (hull, topsides, cabin top, 'wings' x2, aft bulkhead, and liner (floor pan)). That probably would be less expensive than creating an all new boat but I'm not sure if the savings is worth what the end result would be.

Even on a stretched M215 I can not offer a stand-up head compartment (though it can be an enclosed one), I don't have the hull depth/cabin height needed to make that happen. That also means I can't offer a shower. The compartment would strictly be a sit-down-and-do-your-thing affair.

The beam of a stretched M215 would remain at just under 8' (the same as it is now) so the dinette would be the same 2-person set up. There's no way (I can think of in an acceptable arrangement) to come up with a 4-person dinette at that beam.

I still don't see the allure of a bracket. If I'm going to have to change the hull mold and deck mold anyway I'd just as soon leave the transom as it is and add the length to the hull. That would be even less expensive than redoing the transom to accommodate a bracket.

Brackets came into popularity when builders that already had molds with full transoms wanted to add an outboard version. They have not been used (by builders) to add to an existing outboard boat with an existing motorwell.

On the M259 I can do a single with the transom door at 24' 6", what I can't get is twins with a transom door at 24' 6" and that's my dilemma. Is adding 18" to the boat worth it to accommodate twin engines? This is mostly, though not completely, a psychological thing. Somehow a 24-foot trailerable boat (or even a 25-footer) seems more attractive than a 26-footer to a lot of folks (I'm not sure I'm exempt here). The cost difference, I don't believe, would be the largest factor.

The shape of the sides of the M259 at the stern is not set yet. I have conflicting desires there; one is for looks (a nice sloping profile from the sheer to the top of the engine platform), the other is for access (the sides cutaway; vertical from the sheer to the top of the engine platform). However we do it there will be handholds for ingress and egress from the water or from a dinghy.

That's it for now...thanks again.

Les

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nymariner



Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 3
City/Region: sodus point
State or Province: NY
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: M259 for Great Loop Reply with quote

I am hoping to start the Great Loop in the next 12-18 months.
My 2 top choices have been the Ranger Tug 27 or the Rosborough 246.
The M259 is becoming THE NEW top choce. Because after the Great Loop it could be towed with a smaller tow vehicle and should be cheaper to operate(more MPG's).
I would like it with a single 150 hp and a small kicker.
An Airhead composting head.
Could the holding tank be modified to increase drinking water?
I like the transom door for access to the dinghy.
Have you given any thought as how a dinghy would be stored?
Davits on transom or will there be a hardtop like the RF-246?
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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leo Smith wrote:
Adding a few feet to the Marinaut 215 hull and cabin to create a space for an enclosed head makes a lot of sense. The benefit of a dedicated enclosed head compartment (rather than a porta-potty under the v berth) might big selling point for a lot of couples.
Having an enclosed shower on board appears to be an expensive "driver" for the design revisions that are making the Marinaut approach 26'. Most marinas have coin-operated showers, and when you are on the hook, a solar shower can work. It would be interesting to take a poll of 25' CD owners and find out how many times a year they use the showers on their boats.
I think it pays to stick with the "KISS" approach. During a previous ownership, C-Dory lost sight of the "KISS" approach and ended up with the CD-29. Nuff said about that.
best regards,
Leo


We are CD-25 owners and are living aboard this summer. We shower every day and have used marina showers a grand total of ... zero times. Even beyond the convenience of having a shower in your boat is the fact that the head is enclosed. Yep, a door. Even if you never have guests onboard, a separate head compartment gives one more level of functionality. Do you have a bathroom in your house? Does it have a door on it?

We have certainly used marina showers in the past, but grew tired of schlepping stuff down the docks to the public showers, having to wear Crocs in the shower to keep from getting a fungus, and running out of time on the timed showers. Granted, our showers in our boat are reasonably brief, but get the job done. Keeping the humidity in the boat down is a concern, as well. Since we left home in early May, the only time we used the facilities' shower was while the boat was on the trailer in RV parks/campgrounds.

There are certainly tradeoffs, but the head arrangement in the 25/26, with the "view through" compartment when the window covers are dropped is a very functional set-up.

We have had other boats, with head arrangements from separate enclosed to a small catboat with a porta-potty in the cabin. We know this (enclosed) works for us. Understanding that all boats are compromises, an enclosed head will make a boat feel more "livable," and that is a selling point.

At 22 feet, you have to give up dinette/berth/galley/cockpit area to have an enclosed head. At 25-26 feet, you can design it in. Trying to keep a boat trailerable and under a specific price point makes for other compromises.

Things I would love to have in a boat: an island berth (or at least one side fully open for ease of entry and making the bed. A separate stall shower. Two real chairs with a table between them or a settee/couch with a table that can be taken down. A fully equipped galley with counter space and cabinet storage. An enclosed helm. Decent storage space, including a real hanging locker. Oh, and make it so it can be legally taken down the road without permits.

Hmmm... I just described most 35+ foot RVs. And, except for the "down the road without permits" part, some of the "bubble boats" that most of us don't care for aesthetically.

When one looks at cabin boats in the 26-26' range, most of the designers have come to the conclusion that what the C-Dory 25/Venture 26 have for layout is allowing the most you can get in there and keep it functional.

From a business point of view, if I had to make a $350,000 investment to get the first boat out the door, I would have to think long and hard about that in this economy (and still would be inclined to NOT do it... unless I had a business partner with unlimited financial resources Rolling Eyes ).

It's fun to dream about what we'd like in the "next boat," and easy to do if you aren't writing checks. We've all heard about the way to make a small fortune in the boat business.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

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CD-25 "Wild Blue" (sold August 2014)
http://captnjim.blogspot.com/

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Les Lampman
Dealer


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: M259 for Great Loop Reply with quote

nymariner wrote:
I am hoping to start the Great Loop in the next 12-18 months.
My 2 top choices have been the Ranger Tug 27 or the Rosborough 246.
The M259 is becoming THE NEW top choce. Because after the Great Loop it could be towed with a smaller tow vehicle and should be cheaper to operate(more MPG's).
I would like it with a single 150 hp and a small kicker.
An Airhead composting head.
Could the holding tank be modified to increase drinking water?
I like the transom door for access to the dinghy.
Have you given any thought as how a dinghy would be stored?
Davits on transom or will there be a hardtop like the RF-246?


Hi,

Thanks very much for the input. Smile

There isn't (and wasn't) a holding tank intended for the M246/259. We intended to use the Air Head (or Nature's Head) or the SeaLand Traveler toilet with it's built-in waste tank.

I think, at this point, we'll have two options for water; one will be the standard tank (probably 15 to 20 gallons), and then there will be an option for an additional tank (probably around 20 gallons).

The "hot buttons" with regard to the larger Marinaut are:
- High quality lightweight (but very strong) hull for better fuel economy and low trailering weight
- A ride at least as good as the M215 (it's great and I don't want to mess with it)
- Simplicity (no (or few) complex systems) so you get to use the boat rather than work on it

I want to be able to offer a very simple basic boat for folks that need a lighter towing weight but one that's still built with high standards and is a pleasant boat to run and be aboard. It will have an enclosed toilet space but no shower, no water heater, etc.

Then we'll offer options (or perhaps a "cruiser" package) to add those things to a base boat for folks that want them keeping in mind that they'll add cost, weight, and some complexity.

My vision of a dinghy for a boat like this is equally as simple and light; an inflatable in the 8' to 8' 6" range and under 80 pounds or so. That can be lifted with a simple dinghy davit (I already have one designed and in use) onto the cabin top. The dinghy motor can range from 2hp to 6 hp so that it can be reasonably handled.

I don't believe we can offer a cockpit hardtop due to the shape of the cabin top. I think the outside edges of a cockpit hardtop would be low enough that trying to get over the side deck and under the hardtop edges would be an uncomfortable thing. I like the idea but we have a lot of camber in our cabin top (and the extension would need to match it).

The Marinaut will not be in the same category as the Rosborough RF-246 (which we sell at EQ Harbor Service) or the Ranger Tug. Those boats are much larger and more complex (the RF-246 being the simpler of the two) and more much more expensive. Think of the M246/259 as being something like a Class B+ van based camper (at say 25' or so) and the RF-246 and Ranger Tug more like a Class A motorhome (also at 25' or so). The Class A motorhome is going to be wider, taller, and have more volume but also it will be heavier, more expensive to run, and require more from a maintenance standpoint. It's not at all that one type is "good" and another "bad", just that they're very different and each will appeal to folks based on their needs and use scenarios.

Les
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Les Lampman
Dealer


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 779
City/Region: Whidbey Island
State or Province: WA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JamesTXSD wrote:
We are CD-25 owners and are living aboard this summer. We shower every day and have used marina showers a grand total of ... zero times. Even beyond the convenience of having a shower in your boat is the fact that the head is enclosed. Yep, a door. Even if you never have guests onboard, a separate head compartment gives one more level of functionality. Do you have a bathroom in your house? Does it have a door on it?

<Snip>

Best wishes,
Jim B.


Hi Jim,

As always, thanks for the great input and observations.

Thumbs Up

Les
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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les Lampman wrote:
JamesTXSD wrote:
We are CD-25 owners and are living aboard this summer. We shower every day and have used marina showers a grand total of ... zero times. Even beyond the convenience of having a shower in your boat is the fact that the head is enclosed. Yep, a door. Even if you never have guests onboard, a separate head compartment gives one more level of functionality. Do you have a bathroom in your house? Does it have a door on it?

<Snip>

Best wishes,
Jim B.


Hi Jim,

As always, thanks for the great input and observations.

Thumbs Up

Les


Well, I'm trying to overcome my shyness. Wink I realize in reading the above, some could get the wrong impression: we have certainly used marina facility showers in the past, but this year it was our intent to avoid that. And, it has worked out well for us. Joan made a shower curtain that really works (and a matching potty cover Mr. Green to keep shower water out of the toilet).

Since we have owned the C-Dory, I have often said that most boat manufacturers could learn a lot from RV manufacturers in terms of ergonomics and function on boats our size. I think Dave's original design of the Marinaut allows maximum flexibility in floorplan use. We all understand that just making the same thing, only bigger, doesn't always bring a whole lot to the table. Bigger boats generally mean we can get more stuff into 'em!

Sitting here in the boat with rain coming down (glad to not be driving a boat today), I am reminded of space utilization and the need for good ventilation in a small boat. Cool

Best wishes,
Jim
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Les Lampman
Dealer


Joined: 30 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you'll be happy to know that the interior of the M246/M259 was developed around the head compartment/shower, and that the dimension for that came from the shower I use everyday in the 34' motorhome that I live in full time. Smile

I've been looking at a lot of RVs lately and I definitely do take notes on features I think have uses on the marine side.

The one I'd most like to incorporate are the slide-outs, man do they make a difference! Maybe one on each side for counter-balancing?

Dave and I have worked back and forth a lot on the interior space and configuration (meaning I kept telling him what I wanted and he kept drawing...lol) and I'm really pretty happy with it. I think it's at the point now where changing something will make something else worse.

I'm not as happy with the overall length of the boat but that's one area where an RV has a big advantage, it doesn't have to carry its own porch around with it.

The main issue for me (other than the cost of development) is which boat is more likely to sell (and by extension meaning that serves most customers); a stretched M215 with a useable enclosed head (but not shower and not a stand-up head) that's lighter and less expensive (thought it would be a small 24-footer), or an enlarged 26' version with all that brings to the table in terms of beam, larger dinette, enclosed stand-up head, twin engine capable, transom door, etc.

The stretched M215 would probably come in around 5,000 to 5,500 pounds for an all up towing weight and a nicely outfitted version should be $95,000 to $100,000. The M259 version is going to be closer to 6,500 to 7,000 pounds of towing weight and will likely be closer to $110,000 to $115,000.

It's not an easy choice; I'm not totally sure there would be enough sales of either to justify the development costs involved but I'm going to keep trying until I'm certain it won't work.

Les
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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comments on showers: The Tom Cat head/shower compartment is just a little larger than the C Dory 25--and that little made all of the difference. We rarely showered in the 25, and did almost every day in the Tom Cat. On the other hand, we just finished 5 weeks on the C Dory 22, with no shower--and no problems using marina, lake, cockpit RV park showers and on many occasions sponge baths. Even with a home size shower in our 42 foot RV, Marie prefers to shower in the campground showers--I prefer the convenience of the RV.

As to suggestions to the hull/brackets/extensions--just trying to see how you could do a longer boat without the $350,000 mold cost. I have seen what is done in other factories. I have also seen a number of after the fact conversions. I have to disagree with the not converting one hull type to another-(splash well to bracket)---But it's Les's project and trying to get hime to think outside the "box" or boat....

I also respectfully disagree about the self bailing aspect. I have seen what can over whelm a boat, especially if it is non self bailing. It does not have to be much in the way of a sea. (or even a boat wake) My current 18 foot Caracal Cat is self bailing--and I would not take it out in the ocean unless it was. Yes, the scuppers are only a couple of inches above the waterline, and no we don't put 3 200 lb guys in stern, but it does self bail at rest and under way. One of my criticisms of the Tom Cat 255 is that the hull tunnel is not high enough--and just a few inches of freeboard (hull depth) would solve that problem and the notorious water in the fish box problem. But the builders don't see that they can sell a not more boats with that change.
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