Integrated Electronics System

[Alyssa Jean]

Thank you Dr.Dusty. I think we can all learn from you. Keep the lessons coming.

[Sawdust]

Hey, Thanks David!

I'm tearing up my soapbox so I can just enjoy my little C-Salt.

So strange - on my old 85' Lamplighter the 10-year old radar worked great from Jacksonville FL down through the Panama Canal and all the way back to CA. Two generators blew up and the batteries all had to be replaced!

On the way to AK with a 50' Vic Frank custom yacht the boat caught fire (generator room), and we had to limp in to River's Inlet on a single engine with all controls burned up. Radar still worked!

For my next trip to AK in the 22 I'll have one of those slick little 2 kw generators (Yamaha or Honda) aboard -- so the radar will probably die! I can handle that as long as my favorite beer stays cool.

Dusty

[Alyssa Jean]

Let me know when you are heading up to AK. I would consider tagging along in the Anna Leigh if I were asked.

[El and Bill]

Larry asks:
"If you were given a choice between 2 integrated systems that were completely separate from each other or 2 non integrated systems with 6 screens (2 each for radar, sonar, gps) which would you prefer?"

Of course, 2 integrated systems with 2 screens are better than a system with 6 screens -- but that's not my point. I have not suggested two integrated systems.

My point is many boats are currently with all mounted electronics in one screen -- those with a radar, a chartplotter, and a sounder have three mounted screens, each of which can be used for navigating if anything happens to the others.

Dusty said: "I don't think an integrated system is any more dangerous than individual units if backed up. My compass is remote, and gyro controlled, to avoid all the manetic junk in the dash area. A little GPS handheld is certainly a good backup, and I use one often as a primary tool just to keep in practice. Paper charts should be aboard, though, and if boating in unfamiliar waters they should be required safety material."

Again, to clarify, my point is that a single MOUNTED integrated system that replaces three separate MOUNTED systems is more vulnerable to failure. Those MOUNTED systems are the best backup in foul conditions.
I heartily agree that charts, handhelds, & compass are all backups, and we carry all -- but that in foul conditions -- like night, in a fog, in a storm (and of course, none of want to be out in those conditions, but all of us with any experience boating have been caught by unexpected circumtances) -- a MOUNTED system is far superior to handhelds or paper charts. It has also been our experience that many folks, new to boating, have little or no experience with charts, bearings, and small screen handhelds under tough conditions.

[El and Bill]

Been informative and interesting to get folk's opinions on this subject. Sure appreciate all the good posts. We've completed the cruise on the Cumberland and are now a few hundred miles up the Tennessee. Beautiful river.

[Sawdust]

Bill and El --

Agree 100 percent. Every one of these electronic gadgets has a CYA in the book stating not to be used alone for navigation -- and I surely agree. Because of the way we must boat out of Deception -- fog, heavy ship traffic, weather -- shux, you know the drill. Being able to have the MARPA, put the radar on the chart, etc. are all safety factors. Before the C-80 and older Raytheon I had the same setup you have, and was clam happy. They all work great as long as the nut behind the wheel is alert and knows his limitations and has, and knows how to use, backups.

And I really like Garmin -- in fact I had Garmin just before they came out with those beautiful Blue Charts and left me frustrated and unhappy. All marketing. Sort of like my printer -- danged near gave it to me, and I spend all of my booze money on fancy ink and paper!!

Would love to be cruising with you two great folks! Unfortunately gotta stay close to the nest.

Dusty

[El and Bill]

Dusty --
Sure do wish you here heading up the river with us. We miss you, the good discussions, and the shared hot coffee in the morning. We hope to be back up in the San Juans this fall, and looking forward to more visiting. E&B

[Pat Anderson]

Any chance you'll make at least part of the trip fo Desolation Sound September 3 - 18?

[El and Bill]

We'd love to, Pat, but with Halcyon back east we reckon we'll stay for the northeastern fall color before heading to the Northwest. Looking forward to cruising with you good folks on the Chesapeake.

[El and Bill]

Some of you have asked what the commercial folks use, regarding integrated electronic systems. Here is a response from a towboat skipper:

"For our towboats I use separate screens for chartplotter, radar and depth for the simple reason that losing one screen does not mean you lose all those functions.

Many people use combined screens for space saving at the helm, if you do not have that problem, I would use separate screens.

A common setup for vessels in the towboat industry, and what we use is:
Dual Icom VHF
Dedicated digital depth finder
An additional bottom finder for looking for stuff (like a boat whose owner
did not pay attention to his navigation)
Dedicated radar screen
Dedicated chartplotter screen


Some of this stuff may sound like overkill, but redundancy is extremely cheap, compared to what you pay for your boat, insurance, dockage, fuel etc.. Redundancy also allows you to check one system against another, remember the QE2 went aground because the officer on watch did not check one system against another, and a $1.00 electrical connection failed.

Jack TTBG (the towboat guy)"

[Sawdust]

Surely agree with him. Same-o on my commercial boats. To do it again, one of those pieces would be a C-80.

When I taught this stuff to commercial skippers and mates upgrading tonnage licenses, I insisted on a line on a paper chart, a navigation log made out -- and only then any helpful toys. Not a bad idea now if in unfamiliar water.

It frightens me when I see friends venture out in strange areas with a single, or even three pieces of electronics without a clue if the equipment fails.

Every morning when I go to the workshop I say "'Mornin' friend" to my old sextant. Still have my old lead line -- and my dividers and parallel rulers are on my desk. They remind me how fortunate I am to be able to do all of this electronically. Experience has shown that the electronic gadgets are only as good as the alternators, batteries, wiring, and systems that support them. I've had all of them quit at one time or another.

Boat Navigation for the Rest of Us by Captain Bill Brogdon is one of my favorite pieces of reading material. I highly recommend it.

Off my soapbox to go chase monsters of the deep.

Dusty

[Byrdman]

WOW: A lot of feedback on a simple one line question... This is dear to the hearts of all of us. I need to toss my wooden nickle in here.
First: Dusty and others: I want to put a stand alone digital depth finder on FreeByrd (our TC24, Hull#51)... Which one would you suggest for THIS boat and do you see any issue with mounting the transducer on the port sponson due to the Raymarine SYSTEM being already mounted on the starboard side sponson of THIS boat. I made a week long trip with ZERO depth finding ability on my boat, other than a brother who was way knowledgeable of our waters, and several C-Dorys around me that I could ask for depth reading...(to check my brother of course...grin)
Second: I make it a point to write down my departure point with a new high tech device that writes on paper at any angle...no matter if even writing on the flat surface of the ceiling for extended periods of time...a #2 pencil. If departing thru a pass, or cross creek channel, I add that point....too, because I have to get back there in order to have a chance to get back to where I departed. Like the entrance to Destin Pass or Perdido Pass on the Gulf (both very narrow must hit the channel or rocks...) and on these two short, quick, narrow channels, I have 3 "spots" to hit... dead center of pass channel between the narrowest point of the rock walls, and about 50 yards both out and in the pass....as to keep me ON LINE going thru the pass...during high current/wind/confused seas times...
Back to my river trip of late...I found that I "SHOULD HAVE" taken this same "3 spots lined up" in a row for entrances to cove channels off the Cumberland River...where we have boated for years...
You see, my best navigational aid (Brother Mike) was on the lead vessel of our convoy who had left after dark from Cherokee Steak House and Marina.... and we were headed to our known good ancorage in Spencer Creek, where we have boated 1,000 times over in the dark.
I was tail end of convoy...but the only boat without depth finder... Mike and I made the decision he would be point/lead boat, and I could watch all boats...and just follow. The bad part was the slowdown/stop we made at the entrance of Spencer Creek...crossing... the exact point I have many nights sat in my favorite chair at Mom's by the fireplace and watched the experienced tug pilots FIGHT to stay in channel against changing currents and winds...and very narrow channels... BUT, was able to see the "row" of left/right buoys with my radar....and simply put my boat in reverse as to stay within "the channels" and not drift out/down river into the "turning" channel.
Without having watched the pilots before, I feel sure I would not have had the thought that I was moving quickly with wind/current...and due to not having depth finder, and being the last duck in the line, been the 1st boat to "swing" down river the most..and been the 1st strike. ..... No, I was not real comfortable, but, I knew I had about 12" draft, and 5 other boats ...of which none had called in a grounding strike... BUT... You bet your bippy that I was glad I had watched all those pilots and their previous fights...
And, at this point I find it very fitting to throw out the joy it is to have gatherings and take a look-see how and why other folks have rigged their boats the way they did.... and the ability to openly discuss goods/and differences of folks who HAVE AND DO USE OUR BOATS....not just a slick paper add in our favorite boating mags, or a salesman who has spent entirely too many hours on those flat, "comfortable" concrete floors....just selling the boats...without pounding rain, blinding fog, underminding currents... And before anyone throws a spear at me...I am not knocking salesman....just making a point that once in and on the water...the true life of a boat takes place....not in the showrooms and boat shows.